Orcas have destroyed our rudder

[uncle stinkybob]

Originally Posted by rabbi

It's easy to comment on a forum when the problem is on the other side of the planet and you don't have to live with the consequences. But once it's right in front of you, and the threat affects you and your family, things are different.

Just ask yourself:
If this happened right in front of your own harbour on a daily basis - how would you (~the local authorities) react?
How would they react after the first public uproar following the first injury / death? Guess what: these Orcas will be killed in a matter of days.

Unless this suddenly stops -and I don't see why it should- these Orcas WILL get culled. Sooner or later.


Of course they should first try to chase them away with seal bombs and see if they learn to stay away from boats. But if nothing else works, kill them.


I am sure some romantic tree huggers will now bash me. But before doing so please walk the talk and base your boat in Barbate. There is a good number of vacant berths and I am sure they will appreciate your business.

Your argument is your there and other's making comments isn't? Ha ha ha ha you do know orca are found in every ocean on the planet, right?
I see them nearly every other day, I stay away from them, they stay away from my boat. And no, not a tree hugger at all, combat vet, commercial fishermen,timber faller but don't hug anything but my grandkids and my dog. but sure a nice attempt dissuade any argument.
weak man, real weak

[rapanui 2]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

I'm afraid you're not even kidding writing this? This is so sad...
I don't even know where to start to explain how wrong you are and this attitude is exactly what destroys our planet.
My only hope is that you are a minority, one that get extinguished soon.

so smart one what to do?? let your boat distroyed by orcas?be serious what you do if attacked by a bear? try to negociate? i love sea mammals and donate to seasheperd but in real danger for my boat and family I will surely try to bangspear them!!
and please note we talk about spannish orcas!!

[uncle stinkybob]

Originally Posted by rapanui 2

so smart one what to do?? let your boat distroyed by orcas?be serious what you do if attacked by a bear? try to negociate? i love sea mammals and donate to seasheperd but in real danger for my boat and family I will surely try to bangspear them!!
and please note we talk about spannish orcas!!

SPANISH ORCAS? HA HA HA HA HA Man the world has gone dumb

[rapanui 2]

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

SPANISH ORCAS? HA HA HA HA HA Man the world has gone dumb

yes man spannish orcas spannish bulls,bull fight,corridas,you understand ???

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

Your argument is your there and other's making comments isn't? Ha ha ha ha you do know orca are found in every ocean on the planet, right?
I see them nearly every other day, I stay away from them, they stay away from my boat. And no, not a tree hugger at all, combat vet, commercial fishermen,timber faller but don't hug anything but my grandkids and my dog. but sure a nice attempt dissuade any argument.
weak man, real weak

Your Orcas are obviously "normal", those in Barbate are not. You can't stay away from them.

You will reconsider once your local Orcas crack hulls, damage keels, and eat rudders on a daily basis. In July it was a daily thing, about 30 incidents were reported and many more were not.

In the end its the locals / local authorities who decide. Not someone on the other side of the pond.
If you want your voice heard and taken seriously just walk the talk: Move your boat to Barbate harbour.

BTW: My boat is currently 20nm away from Barbate. Yours??

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

SPANISH ORCAS? HA HA HA HA HA Man the world has gone dumb

Obviously you have no clue what we are talking about:
A local pod of 3 Orcas in Spain that has gone wild. Not your nice and shy Orcas that you "avoid".

[Boat Guy]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Captain Mark and his alternate mammal crew.

Originally Posted by tarian

It has been established that it might be two young male orcas who have found a new game , yes it's a game to them but not for the poor rudders, no one has been hurt

@manateeman @tarian


Gentleman, as I read through all these comments, you both seem to be the only self proclaimed researchers. If there are other marine biologists or researchers that would like to respond, I would welcome it.

To the others here, you've already made your points, vented, and done your virtue signaling...Got it, please don't respond.

Tarian, would you be so kind as to explain your affiliations and perhaps your thesis paper? I'm genuinely interested. PM if you would prefer. When you state "It has been established...." could you cite the research? Once again, seriously interested in reading the theory or research paper. Perhaps manateeman would be interested as well...


As I value your thoughts and opinions, I'm also cautioned by my experience dealing with researchers that sometimes get so close to an issue they can't step back and see what they are missing. I'm not saying it's the case in this situation, but self introspection never hurts.


With that said, at this point we have at least one pod showing aggressive behaviors to vessels. I understood it to be two separate pods, but that might not be accurate. Though, I will attempt to find the info, if you can't confirm...Before we delve into the who, what, why, I'd like to address part of the discussion entering into the comments here, as the claim is it's "their world" "It's not our world" or words similar...Meaning, leave them alone we are privileged to be allowed in the same waters. While I understand the sentiment, as someone that travels the world in search of answers to our problems in our waters, I think we need to make a distinction.

Since it is philosophical, with varying opinions, I will share mine. I don't look at the world and compartmentalize it. I no more think the ocean is theirs than I do think the land is ours. I think we need to find a balance for all species to cohabitate. Further, I believe since we are the ultimate apex predator and basically the decision makers, we are the stewards...Having said that, I think we do a horrible job...We need to do better. But, even as scientists and researchers, are we? I can't tell you how many in the field are more focused on funding and grants than actual solutions...Anyway, I digress...


If we establish we have a problem with one or two pods, we can scratch our heads as to the "why?" and "why now?" theories...But, I think this is a very important and overlooked issue as we focus on the "what"... And, this concerns me, because as a person that studies marine mammal and human behavior, I think this is where we start to get answers. What caused this mess? As you know, Orca are pack animals with similar logical alpha characteristics. How, as you have claimed here, are juveniles running the show? That should set off alarm bells. I've read that the dominant of this pod is dead and perhaps created a void... Tragic, if that's the case, but it wouldn't be the first time...

I have some thoughts.... Each of which I hope get investigated by outside parties and ruled out...


1. Eco-tourism has reached a new level. We have become such an Instagram focused society with everyone "loving sea creatures" that we need to pet sharks and get up close and personal to pods...This marine environment to human interaction under the guise of being an environmentalist is going to have consequences, IMO. I don't know whether it played a role here.
A. Are there eco-tours going on here that have created a confusion of interaction with this pod? Have they become socialized by eco-tours or from fisherman, or from boaters? Something has caused this pod not to fear human interaction... You, in the field, understand that wild animals assess the risk reward for every decision they make and every encounter. They know their survival depends on it.
B. Have researchers in the region created a relationship by getting to close when studying and now they are socialized? I think it would be hard to get an honest answer....But the reality is, when I view the videos, I see more than just the "juveniles will be juveniles"... This is a serious issue and humans very likely played a role...


We either over-fished the area, caused socialization, harmed the alphas in the pod, or something...


But, why? I think it's naive to simply call this juveniles playing. In fact it marginalizes the behavior.

We do not see a 3 year old writing in ink on a wall and say, "it's just juvenile males", do we? I hope not...We change the behavior so it doesn't become a learned behavior...

The Spanish Gov't protocol, as I read it, is reckless... Basically telling humans to be submissive to an apex predator who understands they are the apex predator.

What is taught to juveniles in a pod of orca by the alpha? How to kill, perhaps? How to work as a pod with their intellect and strength? When they kill a whale several magnitudes their size do they not exhibit similar behavior? Do they not "play" with seals before they kill them?

The scientist, IMO, are making a grave error in judgement by this protocol.

As stated by you both, these are intelligent apex predator marine animals. They need to be either persuaded and influenced into respecting our safe travel or they need to be handled before this become more prevalent in this pod or others, IMO.

For you bleeding hearts, please spare me.... I've spent a good portion of my life going to areas of need and helping to solve our waterways and oceans issue. It is in that light that I'm highly concerned that this could and will escalate into either the death of some boaters or more incursions with differing pods and cause more harm to orca populatioons...

I've rambled a bit and perhaps missed some points. Feel free to PM me if you have a scientific basis to alleviate my concerns...

So, if I rambled, are you asking what I think should be done?

First, attempt to find out the reasoning - Fisherman feeding? Eco-tours? Scientist socializing? And change it....Own it / take accountability
Second, learn about the pod pack and it's hierarchy and where it went wrong.
Third, stop providing guidance to mariners to be submissive.

Fourth, be the adult - be the alpha - execute steps in this pod and change the behavior with escalating consequences...

Dog trainers don't tell owners to let puppies misbehave. They know the longer the behavior continues the harder it is to correct. This is why dogs end up being put down.

The Spanish gov't is complicit likely at the direction of the "non-profit" org in the region.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Boat Guy

@manateeman @tarian


Gentleman, as I read through all these comments, you both seem to be the only self proclaimed researchers. If there are other marine biologists or researchers that would like to respond, I would welcome it.

To the others here, you've already made your points, vented, and done your virtue signaling...Got it, please don't respond.

Tarian, would you be so kind as to explain your affiliations and perhaps your thesis paper? I'm genuinely interested. PM if you would prefer. When you state "It has been established...." could you cite the research? Once again, seriously interested in reading the theory or research paper. Perhaps manateeman would be interested as well...


As I value your thoughts and opinions, I'm also cautioned by my experience dealing with researchers that sometimes get so close to an issue they can't step back and see what they are missing. I'm not saying it's the case in this situation, but self introspection never hurts.


With that said, at this point we have at least one pod showing aggressive behaviors to vessels. I understood it to be two separate pods, but that might not be accurate. Though, I will attempt to find the info, if you can't confirm...Before we delve into the who, what, why, I'd like to address part of the discussion entering into the comments here, as the claim is it's "their world" "It's not our world" or words similar...Meaning, leave them alone we are privileged to be allowed in the same waters. While I understand the sentiment, as someone that travels the world in search of answers to our problems in our waters, I think we need to make a distinction.

Since it is philosophical, with varying opinions, I will share mine. I don't look at the world and compartmentalize it. I no more think the ocean is theirs than I do think the land is ours. I think we need to find a balance for all species to cohabitate. Further, I believe since we are the ultimate apex predator and basically the decision makers, we are the stewards...Having said that, I think we do a horrible job...We need to do better. But, even as scientists and researchers, are we? I can't tell you how many in the field are more focused on funding and grants than actual solutions...Anyway, I digress...


If we establish we have a problem with one or two pods, we can scratch our heads as to the "why?" and "why now?" theories...But, I think this is a very important and overlooked issue as we focus on the "what"... And, this concerns me, because as a person that studies marine mammal and human behavior, I think this is where we start to get answers. What caused this mess? As you know, Orca are pack animals with similar logical alpha characteristics. How, as you have claimed here, are juveniles running the show? That should set off alarm bells. I've read that the dominant of this pod is dead and perhaps created a void... Tragic, if that's the case, but it wouldn't be the first time...

I have some thoughts.... Each of which I hope get investigated by outside parties and ruled out...


1. Eco-tourism has reached a new level. We have become such an Instagram focused society with everyone "loving sea creatures" that we need to pet sharks and get up close and personal to pods...This marine environment to human interaction under the guise of being an environmentalist is going to have consequences, IMO. I don't know whether it played a role here.
A. Are there eco-tours going on here that have created a confusion of interaction with this pod? Have they become socialized by eco-tours or from fisherman, or from boaters? Something has caused this pod not to fear human interaction... You, in the field, understand that wild animals assess the risk reward for every decision they make and every encounter. They know their survival depends on it.
B. Have researchers in the region created a relationship by getting to close when studying and now they are socialized? I think it would be hard to get an honest answer....But the reality is, when I view the videos, I see more than just the "juveniles will be juveniles"... This is a serious issue and humans very likely played a role...


We either over-fished the area, caused socialization, harmed the alphas in the pod, or something...


But, why? I think it's naive to simply call this juveniles playing. In fact it marginalizes the behavior.

We do not see a 3 year old writing in ink on a wall and say, "it's just juvenile males", do we? I hope not...We change the behavior so it doesn't become a learned behavior...

The Spanish Gov't protocol, as I read it, is reckless... Basically telling humans to be submissive to an apex predator who understands they are the apex predator.

What is taught to juveniles in a pod of orca by the alpha? How to kill, perhaps? How to work as a pod with their intellect and strength? When they kill a whale several magnitudes their size do they not exhibit similar behavior? Do they not "play" with seals before they kill them?

The scientist, IMO, are making a grave error in judgement by this protocol.

As stated by you both, these are intelligent apex predator marine animals. They need to be either persuaded and influenced into respecting our safe travel or they need to be handled before this become more prevalent in this pod or others, IMO.

For you bleeding hearts, please spare me.... I've spent a good portion of my life going to areas of need and helping to solve our waterways and oceans issue. It is in that light that I'm highly concerned that this could and will escalate into either the death of some boaters or more incursions with differing pods and cause more harm to orca populatioons...

I've rambled a bit and perhaps missed some points. Feel free to PM me if you have a scientific basis to alleviate my concerns...

So, if I rambled, are you asking what I think should be done?

First, attempt to find out the reasoning - Fisherman feeding? Eco-tours? Scientist socializing? And change it....Own it / take accountability
Second, learn about the pod pack and it's hierarchy and where it went wrong.
Third, stop providing guidance to mariners to be submissive.

Fourth, be the adult - be the alpha - execute steps in this pod and change the behavior with escalating consequences...

Dog trainers don't tell owners to let puppies misbehave. They know the longer the behavior continues the harder it is to correct. This is why dogs end up being put down.

The Spanish gov't is complicit likely at the direction of the "non-profit" org in the region.

To be honest it doesn’t matter why the orcas or what is causing it. That may take a long time to deduce. If it’s learned behaviour it may have been acquired over time, it wont be easy to un-acquire it.

The immediate decision to create an exclusion zone is the correct responsible. Ultimately the pod may have to culled.

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

To be honest it direct matter why the orcas or what is causing it. That may take a long time to deduce. If it’s learned behaviour it may have been acquired over time, it wont be easy to un-acquire it.

The immediate decision to create an exclusion zone is the correct responsible. Ultimately the pod may have to culled.

I agree. It matters not one twit, why the attacks are occurring. It is the captain's moral and legal responsibility to protect, both his vessel and crew.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

I agree. It matters not one twit, why the attacks are occurring. It is the captain's moral and legal responsibility to protect, both his vessel and crew.

I would not suggest the boat takes on the role of attacking the orcas. ( in self defence or otherwise ) Better heed the exclusion zone and let the proper authorities deal with it. The captain can protect the vessel and crew by not sailing in the designated area.

The authorities will no doubt deal with the issue

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I've been thinking about this issue (marine mammals vs humans) for a while, since California Sea Lions started to occupy the docks at my marina in Seattle. They would block access to my boat and the laws prevented any harassment of them. (I was reported and threatened with legal action for spraying them with a garden hose to get them to leave).

Now we have Orcas who seemingly are quite capable of preventing us from using the sea with our boats.

I don't attribute this to malign intent, and I don't want to kill or injure Orcas (or Sea Lions) but at what point do we get to assert our rights to use the marine environment?

I don't buy that we are only "guests". I think humans have as much right to the use of the ocean as the Orcas do. I especially think I have as much right to use my marina berth (in Seattle) as the Sea Lions do (we humans built it, they aren't even locals).

Obviously it is a bit hard to negotiate with Orcas or Sea Lions but at what point do we say, enough is enough. When they say they want my dingy, do we have to give it to them?

Given the overpopulation of the California Sea Lions, I firmly believe that the US Marine Mammal Protection Act needs amending to allow for yearly culling, based on recommendations by marine biologists and shareholders comment.

[Boat Guy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

To be honest it doesn’t matter why the orcas or what is causing it. That may take a long time to deduce. If it’s learned behaviour it may have been acquired over time, it wont be easy to un-acquire it.

The immediate decision to create an exclusion zone is the correct responsible. Ultimately the pod may have to culled.

Well, the truth is, we may never learn the cause. But, that's not helpful to trying to create a solution. Further, we can certainly investigate interactions, whether socialization activity has happened or is continuing to happen and rule them out...

You seem very deliberate in your support of their action. Are you involved in some capacity? I had the understanding that the "exclusion zone" was only for vessels >15M, correct? If so, how does this stop the behavior other than training the orca to go after a larger vessel?


An additional point I wanted to add above, but was unable to edit, is to add "feeding from the side of a vessel" as a potential cause.


I've documented feedings of other marine species when they are trying to lure them closer.

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would not suggest the boat takes on the role of attacking the orcas. ( in self defence or otherwise ) Better heed the exclusion zone and let the proper authorities deal with it. The captain can protect the vessel and crew by not sailing in the designated area.

The authorities will no doubt deal with the issue

There is a decided difference between attacking and defending. And I would imagine that the orcas are unaware of any exclusion zone.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Retaliation is an expensive luxury.

Yes and all communities who refused to do it have been beaten away. The Egypts, the Greeks, the Romans and the Germans ( ok they were conquered in the long run)

Strong folks always fight. That is the rule of nature and if an Orca can kill you he will. Same as the Huns. They killed and did not even think about others.

The only question is always: "Who is stronger" and our Uhs and Ohs are a clear sign of degeneration and that always killed all folks.

Yes we should do everything possible to keep our footprint small.
DO NOT BUY NEW THINGS. USE OR BUY OLD THINGS. This will keep it small.
But if someone fights us we have to fight back. That easy.

And if they do not stop it on pain.
OK, then kill them. Again That easy.
If we do not do it we are not worth living on this planet any more.

The massive fallacy is to assume those that “ fight “ are right . Sadly people are often convinced that violence they are committing is morally “ right “ to only realise later they did more harm then good

“ communities “ or nations often failed for many reasons primarily economic , or they started fights they didn’t win

Hence simply saying you must “ strike back “ is simple nonsense. What must be done is to solve a problem. Simply “ hitting “ back may make the situation worse.

[PJS]

Originally Posted by Networker

I don’t destroy planets or just randomly attack people and their boats. Unlike these vicious beasts, I’m not running around destroying boats and putting lives at risk. They need to be culled ASAP.

Idiotic statements like this one are why we have endangered species...the arrogance to make the determination that the Orcas need to be exterminated because they damaged a rudder.
BTW... WE are the intruders in their habitat.
If anyone needs to be culled it's the narrow minded people that believe they have the right to determine the fate of others...
How many vessels steam over manatees, Orcas, whales.... paybacks are a bitch.