Orcas sink yacht off Portugal

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by sepharad

I think Boatman may be right, but can't really know. Still I would shut down, drop sail and not engage...just like an annoying teen-ager.

"When one considers these are likely 3-4yr olds one could say they are just bored kids looking for entertainment.. kinda like human kids."

I think they should be assembling data quickly and sharing with the sailing community. I have heard bits, but not seen any sort of real accumulation and analysis.

i.e.Motoring or sailing. Power or sail. power shut down or left on, sail dowsed or left up. Feeding behavior or just rudder knocking. What was the human response...yelling, pointing, feeding, speeding up or slowing down?

Most importantly which response was successful and which was a failure?

Depthsounder on or off might be worth adding to the list.
Longline trailed or not too.

We'll be leaving the sounder off and do not trail a line while going around Finisterre tommorow hugging the shore inside of the 100m depth as far practical.

Wish us luck, I am a tad worried.not to much, but one can not ignore the situation.

[Borja]

Originally Posted by sepharad

I think they should be assembling data quickly and sharing with the sailing community. I have heard bits, but not seen any sort of real accumulation and analysis.

i.e.Motoring or sailing. Power or sail. power shut down or left on, sail dowsed or left up. Feeding behavior or just rudder knocking. What was the human response...yelling, pointing, feeding, speeding up or slowing down?

Most importantly which response was successful and which was a failure?

They are, slowly; beside the preference for small/medium sized sailboats, there's no discernible patterns. You have some information re: last season here:

https://www.orcaiberica.org/characte...eracting-ships

Some data here too:
https://www.theca.org.uk/orcas/repor...y8uVWNgtWyIQMI

The Spanish government has commissioned a study on the effectiveness of deterrence methods which afaik is being designed. The (understandable) reluctance of doing a mass tagging program will make it a very slow process.

Spanish officials bizarrely deciding to publicly declare most mitigation measures illegal even if used for self-protection isn't going to help data collection either.

Originally Posted by hpeer

Is there any information about exactly what occurred?

Saying “Orcas sank boat” may be very misleading.

It strikes me as far more likely that the rudder was damaged and fell out or otherwise created a significant leak. If that is the case the root cause is could either be putting to sea with an improperly prepared vessel or a structurally weak vessel.

I understand there are folks who are adamant no sailboat should ever touch anything hard, and that their boats need structural inspection after grounding is acceptable. And that is fine. But then don’t blame the whales when your boat sinks.

I am if the opinion boats should be sufficient structural integrity to survive sine unintended rough treatment and sail away. Of course where you draw that line is wide open to opinion. But it should be somewhere above having an orca bump your rudder, or having the rudder strike a deadhead up to waterline speed.

Perhaps they're still in shock, but the crew has been silent on media or social media.

The boat was a Sadler 32, not known for being underengineered; and by all accounts in good condition.

Speculative, but perhaps skeg rudders might be more vulnerable?

Originally Posted by boatman61

Oh.. and it seems the overall group is now around 60 Orca, they've made a comeback since 2011 when they were down to under 40.. dunno how many family pods there are.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Five pods.

There were 60 verified individuals a few years ago. Renaud de Stephanis, who has been studying this population for 30 years, has estimated ~100 individuals last week. I reckon it seems high, but the number is probably around 60ish and 100.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by double u

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougal_Robertson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauric...Maralyn_Bailey

hark, hark, the structural expert is here...!

The first instance was a 43’ 49 year old wooden boat.
The second was 31’ boat struck by a “whale”, not specified as an Orca.

[barnakiel]

It will end in someone killing the animals. It always ends this way. We talk a lot about how much we love nature. And then we destroy it.



b.

[Carl-T705]

Originally Posted by Caminantes

The governments are trying to protect the Orcas.

So far there has been a ban on small vessels in certain areas, certain times of the year.

The guidelines for eventual encounters provided by the spanish government didnt help much preserving the integrity of the boats involved in the encounters.

This is the first sailboat that is a total loss...

It is a difficult subject.

Orcas are the apex predator in their habitat. There is not a way to persuade them to stop. They are on top and know no fear. And at the same time, they are an endagered species in part due to human activity.

Banning navigation of small vessels is like with the lockdowns: it can only be conducted up to a certain point. People has been sailing since tens of thousends of years. And they will continue to do so.

My take is that eventually these interactions will end with the loss of human life.

The way the world works, if those humans happen to be holders of a strong passport, their government will then conduct the culling of the animals.

Of course it can also happen that the orcas attack the wrong boat and get hurt or even killed on the process.

Surely there is a post apocalytic sailor out there carrying the kind of weapon to defend himself from pirates, orcas and alien abductions.

Meanwhile, we keep sailing.

Are you serious or is this a little humor, attack the wrong boat?? What would be the correct boat to attack? Every activity has inherite risk. A single goose can take down a single engine plane or a gaggle can take down an airliner. This is a story where survivors can tell the story, I say bravo to the crew and the rescue boat. Tough break.

[hpeer]

I would like to see some real statistical data on the boat damage.

[Caminantes]

Originally Posted by Carl-T705

Are you serious or is this a little humor, attack the wrong boat?? What would be the correct boat to attack? Every activity has inherite risk. A single goose can take down a single engine plane or a gaggle can take down an airliner. This is a story where survivors can tell the story, I say bravo to the crew and the rescue boat. Tough break.

I am seriously joking.

From the perspective of the orcas, the right boat to attack is any boat that flees, like preys do.

The wrong one, would be the one who attacks back, in the old, brutal, bloody and messy way of the only apex predator this planet has: us.

Yes. Every activity has its own risks. Sailing has risks. Messing up with sailors and their boats, too.

With humour yes, i expressed the fact that to some sailors (who may not necesarily post here in the forums), arming themselves to protect against possible attacks is a very real possibility.

Eskimos hunt and eat orcas since always.

Before, they used to do it from very small vessels and using harpoons. Now a days they use a 30.6 rifle. One or two shots behind the breathing hole do the job.

To some of us, carrying a gun or shooting an animal may seem like a terrible idea. To others, it may not seem to be such a bad idea.

Some people eat vegan.

Some others, eat vegans.

To each their own.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It will end in someone killing the animals. It always ends this way. We talk a lot about how much we love nature. And then we destroy it.



b.

We like our nature when it’s sanitary

Look at all the idiots who want to pet bison

We need culling but apparently we are targeting the wrong species

Sigh

[Grancan]

Hi Borja, good day to you sir, it seems to me that you know what you are talking about with the situation off the coast of Portugal/Spain with these Orca attacks, damnit you are in Murcia, awesome place by the way. I believe you should be heard on Spanish nautical boards, many of them cross these waters regularly and they seem to me to have no clue (hopes from government to give official directions on this issue hahahaha). I hope you don't mind that I linked your previous post on the matter on the Spanish ANABRE (the biggest association of recreational sailors in Spain) official Telegram group. They seem to be very concerned with this very issue, but surprisingly there was no response, I wonder if any of the hundred's of participants in that forum know English, but since the subject is a big concern among it's members, and I know there is a lot that you can contribute, assuming you know Spanish, forgive me if you don't, I would be glad to relay any message in case you are not a participant in the group already, and if you want to join I can give you access. Thank you so much from your input on the subject and hope you are willing to cooperate. As fellow sailers good winds to you!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Caminantes

I am seriously joking.

From the perspective of the orcas, the right boat to attack is any boat that flees, like preys do.

The wrong one, would be the one who attacks back, in the old, brutal, bloody and messy way of the only apex predator this planet has: us.

Yes. Every activity has its own risks. Sailing has risks. Messing up with sailors and their boats, too.

With humour yes, i expressed the fact that to some sailors (who may not necesarily post here in the forums), arming themselves to protect against possible attacks is a very real possibility.

Eskimos hunt and eat orcas since always.

Before, they used to do it from very small vessels and using harpoons. Now a days they use a 30.6 rifle. One or two shots behind the breathing hole do the job.

To some of us, carrying a gun or shooting an animal may seem like a terrible idea. To others, it may not seem to be such a bad idea.

Some people eat vegan.

Some others, eat vegans.

To each their own.

lets not descend into a stupid stupid gun thead advocacy nonsense and has no relevance to the vast vast majority of sailors

The current advice from the RYA is to remain very quiet and slip away , whether that works or not remains to be seen I was always told make more noise not less

in the end the vast vast majority of boaters will have nothing more threatening then a bread knife on board and even less training as to use that knife against an Orca

Hence talk of significant defense is compete BS , irrespective of whether its legal or not . If the Orcas want you and the boat , well they'll most likely have it

Either don't sail there or accept the risk , its no worse then a survival storm , we accept the possibly of death every day we get into a car.

[Caminantes]

I dont get it.

According to the RYA we shall remain very quiet... close our eyes... and sleep away? Sounds like a dream to me!

What about making noise with a bread knife?

Would that qualify as triple stupid?

To be honest i have always been an easy target for orcas and wild cats.

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by Caminantes

I dont get it.

According to the RYA we shall remain very quiet... close our eyes... and sleep away? Sounds like a dream to me!

What about making noise with a bread knife?

Would that qualify as triple stupid?

To be honest i have always been an easy target for orcas and wild cats.

Argh, the RYAnjust copied the spanish rules which do NOT work. They guarantee the safety of the orcas and btw guarantee also maximum damage on the yacht. The guy from the RYA who posted this silently eclipsed from facebook after numerous reactions on his stupid posts

[houseofcharm]

[QUOTE=jordanbigel;3662599] But I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of underwater speaker you could lower into the water which could be used to broadcast sounds designed to repel them.



A Justin Bebier CD should do the trick.

[houseofcharm]

Orcas are protected but not considered endangered. https://www.americanoceans.org/facts...as-endangered/

[Paulie]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I would like to see some real statistical data on the boat damage.

A bit difficult in this case for obvious reasons.

We were hit in September last year, near Sesimbre. One small-ish whale, probably around 4m in length. Came from behind/below so no warning. After the initial collision I turned off the engine and A/P and waited for whatever was coming next. The whale got it’s head and shoulders under the stern and turned the helm from stop to stop in about a second, then turned the boat through 180 degrees, twice. In between there was a lot of scraping and bumping going on. This lasted between 5-10 minutes at which point boredom kicked in and off it went at considerable speed.
We checked for damage with the GoPro and, seeing none, headed for Sines for a better look and a quiet night. When we arrived we were one of seven boats that had arrived that day that had all had interaction. Four or them were rudderless which we saw when they dried out on the slipway the next morning, a couple had damaged props and bent shafts, one had an wind vane">Aries wind vane bent almost to 90 degrees.
Make no mistake, these animals can easily cause enough damage to sink a sailing boat and I’m surprised that it has taken this long for it to happen.
Whatever the reason for their behaviour, it needs addressing sooner rather than later. I’m not advocating any violence, and trying to exclude sailing traffic from the west coast of Europe to the Mediterranean is pretty much a non starter.
Part of the problem is that they can be in several places in the space of a day and no one knows where they will crop up next. I understand they are now causing problems off the Scillies.