Prices not going down??

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by GordMay

As rabbi suggested, you should read it (or anything).

“1984" by George Orwell
➥ https://www.planetebook.com/free-ebooks/1984.pdf

“Brave New World” by Aldous Leonard Huxley
➥ https://www.idph.com.br/conteudos/eb...veNewWorld.pdf

More Free* Literature ➥ https://www.planetebook.com/
* All in the public domain, and out of copyright.

Gord,

If I may add to your list, as a natural extension is Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves to Death.” Postman piviots off of Odell and Huxley explaining why Huxley’s book was a more accurate predictor. But it goes far beyond that in explanation.

Although a well known and influential book it is available as a free PDF.


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...M2ZkOWJmZGI4ZQ

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

What Paul said .

But to dig deeper, the true alternative is to stop using wages (and their cousins) as the main means of distributing resources in our societies.

Everyone needs resources to live and thrive. In addition, our societies need to be productive; to produce these resources that we all need. A "job" encompasses both these functions, but it doesn't have to be that way. We could choose to distribute resources AND we could be productive. There's no necessity to combine the two.

This is what we're effectively doing through the various direct tranfers right now. It's a primordial Guaranteed Basic Income and it's wonderful that people of all political stripes have all embraced it. We're all socialists now .

Hopefully we'll remember these lessons once we get past this latest crisis.

We are doing this by stealth through various means.

One is through the TSA. All those endless security guards at our airports. They add very little to the security profile. It is a way to keep a lot of people employed, a kind of “unemployment with dignity.”

There are numerous other examples, this is just one.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I agree, no one is proposing what I'm suggesting. But you asked for real alternatives. I'm giving you one. If people didn't need to earn a wage to sustain and thrive, then this whole tailspin we're currently in would be a non-issue.

The Guaranteed Income is a meager step towards this true change. And I realize most people can't even get their heads around the concept of disassociating wages (and their ilk) from resources needed to live. We're so deeply embedded in the capitalist belief system that most of us can't even conceive of alternatives.

But we're going to get their one way or another We're rapidly moving towards an economy without jobs. Automation, then robotics, and now the real "killer app" of AI, is going to replace virtually all tasks. We won't need people to be productive. But we still need to distribute resources.

Mike,

I like that you are proposing real alternatives.

Very briefly, to not go tooo far off topic, I think you are not radical enough.

It strikes me that the current system is doomed to fail. But also that at some point we need to move to a financial system not based upon growth. A steady state economy. The problem is that we need to shrink the economy. And that means either a period of designed de-growth or absorbing a lump of de-growth, in a shock treatment. That’s what is happening now. We are experiencing a de-growth shock, pretty mild.

We should accept this, try to accept the new reality, and not go all the way back to a growth focused economy.

[Island Time O25]

Based upon the combination of productivity and technological advances we could comfortably live at 1950s-1960s levels of comfort and work on average not 40 hours but 10-20 hours per week. The only issue would be that some (many?) people need to be occupied with something to keep them out of trouble.

The West for a good while (100+ years) has been going toward more social distancing in all aspects of life, from family ties to work environment and to personal relationships. Thus bigger and bigger houses for smaller and smaller families became the norm. 100 years ago up to several generations lived in one 1,000sf house or partment. Today a family of 3 wants a 2,500-3,000sf place and the large lawns all around it. That's just not sustainable nor makes economic or ecological sense in the long run.

Same with automobiles, clothing, etc. All of that can be downsized and decluttered. And the freed up time and money can be used for travel, hobbies, personal development/learning, etc. Or even more time with the loved ones. As it is, most parents, due to their job constrains and economic needs, spend little precious time with their young children. Then, later on, the same parents are suprised that their children are doing all kinds of crazy things.

Hopefully, once this thing is over, we will start looking at all the alternatives to the current model. And not fighting wars with the countries which take alternative paths as we used to do in the past and still itch to do now. Especially against countries which try to decouple themsleves from the interdependent World money scheme.

[hpeer]

Island time,

Try this. You might like it.

Bertrand Russel, In Praise Of Idleness

In Praise of Idleness By Bertrand Russell

Think you hit the nail on the head. What to do with all that spare time?

Maybe this virus will provide some answers?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hpeer

...It strikes me that the current system is doomed to fail. But also that at some point we need to move to a financial system not based upon growth. A steady state economy. The problem is that we need to shrink the economy. And that means either a period of designed de-growth or absorbing a lump of de-growth, in a shock treatment. That’s what is happening now. We are experiencing a de-growth shock, pretty mild.

We should accept this, try to accept the new reality, and not go all the way back to a growth focused economy.

I fully agree, and my alternative economy* that dissociates access to resources from productivity pretty much demands a zero growth model.


BTW, you've got me reading "Thinking, Fast and Slow." Good read. Very similar to concepts presented by Jonathan Haidt.


*Which is not "my" creation, of course.

[plusguy]

I hope your all better sailors than you are economy experts ......

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by plusguy

I hope your all better sailors than you are economy experts ......

Elaborate.......

[plusguy]

What I mean is no one can predict precisely what's going to happen in the near future with COVID 19 so dont try and guess. Guessing only leads to mistakes. I hope sailors dont guess when it comes to important decisions while sailing.....
.

[Larry Florida]

Originally Posted by plusguy

I hope your all better sailors than you are economy experts ......

Well said

[BlueB]

Prices will go down as soon as personal income from wage and salaries go down. But then the question is how to finance a few trillion$ of tax payer spending? Probably only by printing more money and introducing a nice inflation rate!Now we wish the US government hadn't cut down tax rates and spend money on walls in the past 3 years!

[Cat Partners]

I have owned cats for 25 years. I watched cat prices very closely from 07-10. During the financial crisis I was amazed monos seemed almost free but cats held incredibly strong. I could not understand it but they never really discounted across the broad market.

[slug]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Mike,

I like that you are proposing real alternatives.

Very briefly, to not go tooo far off topic, I think you are not radical enough.

It strikes me that the current system is doomed to fail. But also that at some point we need to move to a financial system not based upon growth. A steady state economy. The problem is that we need to shrink the economy. And that means either a period of designed de-growth or absorbing a lump of de-growth, in a shock treatment. That’s what is happening now. We are experiencing a de-growth shock, pretty mild.

We should accept this, try to accept the new reality, and not go all the way back to a growth focused economy.

You must have growth or you will create a society in which the beneficiaries of past growth win but the new generation , no growth , looses

If GDP and population growth are not aligned you will recreate Africa , or central America, or the Middle East ...

[Happ]

Originally Posted by geoleo

Dear Sailors, The $ dollar is supposed to be "KING" stocks have collasped, interest rates at all time lows, gold is down, the dollar is up UP on all currencies worldwide , the euro is headed for par with the dollar, the pound is way down too, oil is down 53% in 2 weeks. Yet marine stuff is same old high price. Defenders big sale is pathetic usually offering around 10-15% off a fake list price. Used sailboats are still way up there too and asking prices are the same. Why is this ? Is every seller hoping beyond hope OR is their business still doing great with old prices?

I don’t know what listings you are looking at. Most ads i see show new reduced prices. I even got an email offering a $100,000 Discount on a new 43ft PC. It’s going to take a little while for current sellers to accept that boat loans are going to be very hard to get if not impossible. Cash buyers are their new buyers in the near term. With spring coming up what will they do? Will they launch for the season or lower their prices to get the boat sold. Every seller is different in why they are selling the boat.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

This pause in the industrialized nations economies is the result of the pandemic. Once this threat is stabilized and those afflicted are responding to treatments the economy will return to a generally prosperous level.

I don’t think you understand economics. Even after this virus is past us it will take a while for people to replenish their bank accounts and start spending again. That could take a few years. Many people will have debt to repay that they have been given temporary relief from. The market is not going to roar back. Companies will ramp up based on the needs at that time. If the need is not there they wont rehire everyone. The stimulus will help the US have a softer landing. We are in a recession.