Prices not going down??

[Hardhead]

Coming right down to it, I'd guess that in a real world-wide crisis - either the USD, physical gold, or this crazy bitcoin will be trusted the most. From some controversial stuff I've read, certain aspects of the gold market are a little flaky too.

[Buzzman]

Nah. When money becomes worthless, those with TP will be the new 'Kings'.

Or, probably more likely, those with access to food.

As some wise person once said: "You can't eat money".

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Come to Philadelphia. We have a 4 apt building. It has remote read water meters. Apparently the Water Dept decided to not read the meters for 4 months and then when we got the bill they were claiming a HUGE increase in water usage. $2,000 in dispute.

Before the remote read they would frequently not do an update for months, sometimes years. They used “estimated” readings. When we closed on the house the previous owner had to pay the final bill to a reading and that bill was in excess of $2,000. That was THIRTY years ago. Worse was the gas department. It could take 3 months to get gas turned on.

Here, if your power is 'disconnected' when you move out, usually it's just flipped off in the meter box, and a piece of sticky tape labelled "Contact the retailer of your choice" is taped over it. Remove the tape, flip the switch and bingo. Contact the retailer at your leisure.

Gas is usually trickier. Requires a techinican in some places, but most don't have "gas" as in "town gas" they have porta-gas, so just call up, order a cylinder, bingo.

Water is usually the tap before the meter is turned off. Find the meter, turn on the tap (faucet or valve for you seppos) and, bingo!

It's up to the retailer of the goods to ensure you pay them for it.

Course, if you don't, they can get nasty and send a tehnician round to physically disconnect you. there's a fee to get re-connected, then...

Plus we have ombudsman, govt funded, to complain to - so if you complainb, watch how quickly things get sorted. It's usually pretty quick as there is a 'service delivery contract' in the retailers 'service provision agreement' with the local govt agency/regulator. they get 'please explain' letters from the Minister if they get too many 'black marks'.

I'm over-generalizing, but it's actually not bad here.

Though power price has increased fivefold in the past ten years thanks to 'gold-plating' of the infrastructure (generators, distributors and retailers 'playing the middle' in order to justify gouging).

[CarinaPDX]

@pt49: you've been drinking the Kool-Aid. And watching too much children's tv (muppets?)

Theoretically the ownership of a BitCoin can be traced because every transfer is added to its blockchain (along with any garbage the owner wants to add, another problem for another discussion). But what is tracked is the wallet, not the owner of the wallet. With enough computer processing it is, at least in theory, possible to track the ownership within the BitCoin system - that is the wallet. But finding the real world owner is an entirely different matter - in fact the BC was probably passed through many wallets, with possibly legal transactions, before leaving the system as cash. So as Gord pointed out, more than a billion dollars of cryptocurrencies was stolen in 2018. Mt. Gox famously lost a fortune for itself and those using its exchange, and went bankrupt. If they couldn't trace and recover the money then casual users sure won't recover anything. Aside from the headline-grabbing large thefts, there is a fair amount of malware out there that looks for and steals wallets from garden-variety users. It really is the wild west, only you'll never see the bank robbers, much less hunt them down. The benefits are speculation, anonymity, and secret international transfers. Most of us have no need for these "benefits" and are happier with "real" money and "real" banks with FDIC insurance.

Now go back to watching Sesame Street.

Greg

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Actually it's the ultimate payment mechanism for criminals. A very large part of the actual usage (not investors) is for large purchases-transfers-sales, completed in a day or two. Just wait until law enforcement learns to track this activity. And of course there have been a number of large "heists" from Bitcoin banks - money gone, too bad, not insured. And there is no government or other organization backing up the value, the value is just what others will pay - one panic and it is over. Still, for those needing to anonymously pay for their drugs (or a hit) it has value.

Greg

The suggestion that hardened criminals are the main users of bitcoin for nefarious activities is amusing when compared to what the financial industry does on a continuous and visible basis every single moment of every single day.
One bank, just ONE of many is in the hole to the tune of
49 TRILLION US DOLLARS[emoji844][emoji844].......That’s Deutschebank......Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan and Citigroup are all in for about 45 TRILLION each.

[CarinaPDX]

No argument that the big banks are grifters; still, they don't usually just steal money from you. Well, not the commercial banks, except maybe Wells Fargo... The investment banks, and Wall St. generally, are all about separating you from your money. Deutche Bank made the mistake of wanting to be a big player on the world stage of investment banks - that is a bomb ticking along... For garden variety checking and savings, kept under the FDIC limits, there shouldn't be a problem.

The difference of course is that BitCoin is set up to be very useful for criminals to transfer ill gotten gains; the Wall St. banks are the criminals...

Greg

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by pt49

There is only one version of Bitcoin.

Travelers checks went out with the dinosaurs mate... you must be living under a rock.

was hoping for answer with more substance, not just insult, which usualy happen when one touches the truth.

Anyone have any better argument that the use of bitcoin is replacement of traveler cheques? Putting more money in BTC... well BIS can sure come up with own version of bitcoin and current btc investment will trend towards 0.

they may reuse current one, but why would they make current owners rich ? Attaching some gold to it would make it trendier as well. After all all religions have gold in highest regard. Apparently humans were created to dig for gold for their masters.....

[pt49]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Anyone have any better argument that the use of bitcoin is replacement of traveler cheques?

I was not the one suggesting Bitcoin is a replacement for travelers checks... I was pointing out that someone was a muppet for suggesting so.

Below is a list showing the price in USD of Bitcoin each year on 25th Sept since 2010... it was worth less than 1 cent in 2009... now, I don't give a damn if someone uses Bitcoin illegally, just as I don't care if someone uses USD illegally.

I also don't care if some investors lose their bitcoin just as I don't care if some investors lose their savings on Wall St...

What I do care about is finding an investment class that is fairly consistent in increasing in value over time.

2010... $0.06
2011... $4
2012... $12
2013... $129
2014... $410
2015... $235
2016... $602
2017... $3,776
2018... $6,430
2019... $8,453
2020... ???

No asset class in history has performed as well as this has.
I believe that with the impending hyperinflation in the world at large that Bitcoin will continue to see similar or better gains in the future.
I have bought Bitcoin for the last 3 years at all sorts of prices varying between $3,200 and about $15,000 per bitcoin... I buy a small portion of a bitcoin with EVERY spare dollar I have, on a monthly basis.
I don't have a lot, but I do have enough to swap for a 1980's 35' to 38' voyage ready yacht if I wished to cash out.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

was hoping for answer with more substance, not just insult, which usualy happen when one touches the truth.



Anyone have any better argument that the use of bitcoin is replacement of traveler cheques? Putting more money in BTC... well BIS can sure come up with own version of bitcoin and current btc investment will trend towards 0.



they may reuse current one, but why would they make current owners rich ? Attaching some gold to it would make it trendier as well. After all all religions have gold in highest regard. Apparently humans were created to dig for gold for their masters.....

I travel a lot between 5 countries , use 5 different currencies on a daily basis and have never considered Bitcoin as being anything even vaguely similar to the now rare travelers cheque. I use a Qantas cash card with multiple currencies, a “Revolut” card .... again , multiple currencies, and finally, cash
Bitcoin is quite difficult to conduct a transaction with and I don’t regard it as a fluid daily currency.
Bitcoin security is the responsibility of the owner, if you leave your bitcoin live in a bank ( like the infamous Mtgox), sure , it’s vulnerable to theft but if kept in “cold storage” in a bitcoin wallet offline there is minimal risk of theft.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I’m not a savvy informed bitcoin investor and initially bought 5 bitcoin for $3,800 each then recently used 2 of them to make a purchase .....legal purchase....so if they go to zero I only stand to lose $11,400 (today’s value is $20,400 for the 3)
If you go overseas, forget the travelers Cheques, you can still get em but no one will cash em.
And to maintain the thread , I have a boat in a Marina that I might not be able to get to for a long long long time and will probably sell it for whatever the market fixes the price range at..... it might be a high price if escape pods become the trend ,but realistically probably a much lower price than what I paid for it. Fortunately the marina fees are low and she’s in a cradle on the hardstand so it’s a low priority concern.
Cheers, Pete.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by pt49

I was not the one suggesting Bitcoin is a replacement for travelers checks... I was pointing out that someone was a muppet for suggesting so.

Below is a list showing the price in USD of Bitcoin each year on 25th Sept since 2010... it was worth less than 1 cent in 2009... now, I don't give a damn if someone uses Bitcoin illegally, just as I don't care if someone uses USD illegally.

I also don't care if some investors lose their bitcoin just as I don't care if some investors lose their savings on Wall St...

What I do care about is finding an investment class that is fairly consistent in increasing in value over time.

2010... $0.06
2011... $4
2012... $12
2013... $129
2014... $410
2015... $235
2016... $602
2017... $3,776
2018... $6,430
2019... $8,453
2020... ???

No asset class in history has performed as well as this has.
I believe that with the impending hyperinflation in the world at large that Bitcoin will continue to see similar or better gains in the future.
I have bought Bitcoin for the last 3 years at all sorts of prices varying between $3,200 and about $15,000 per bitcoin... I buy a small portion of a bitcoin with EVERY spare dollar I have, on a monthly basis.
I don't have a lot, but I do have enough to swap for a 1980's 35' to 38' voyage ready yacht if I wished to cash out.

GL then. For what is worth, I predict new highs in couple weeks/mths. Still will not buy it though. Never used travelers cheques, but just remembered name as i was watching too much tv adds in that time.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by pt49

What I do care about is finding an investment class that is fairly consistent in increasing in value over time.

2010... $0.06
2011... $4
2012... $12
2013... $129
2014... $410
2015... $235
2016... $602
2017... $3,776
2018... $6,430
2019... $8,453
2020... ???

No asset class in history has performed as well as this has.
I believe that with the impending hyperinflation in the world at large that Bitcoin will continue to see similar or better gains in the future.
I have bought Bitcoin for the last 3 years at all sorts of prices varying between $3,200 and about $15,000 per bitcoin... I buy a small portion of a bitcoin with EVERY spare dollar I have, on a monthly basis.
I don't have a lot, but I do have enough to swap for a 1980's 35' to 38' voyage ready yacht if I wished to cash out.

" investment class that is fairly consistent in increasing in value over time."
Like +1000% in one 12month period and -85% in the next?
You just need to look at more detailed charts of 2017 and 2018 and pick the right timeframe.

Your figures nicely show the intrinsic value of a BC here. Pretty close to 0.04, and that was after a year of exponential growth.


One can certainly make money by trading BCs, nothing wrong with that.
But I would not consider it a long term "investment". Its gambling. It's a Ponzi scheme. If you are the last one to hold BCs you are f...ed big time.

If you had to burry say 100k USD today, as a legacy for your grandchildren. Something that you know you can't touch for 20 years.
Would you choose USD, gold coins, or a HDD / USB stick?

[CarinaPDX]

Calling a crypto-currency an "investment class" is pretty funny. In any real sense it is not an investment, it is a speculation. Now a lot of money has been made (and lost) by speculators over the years, and if you like playing that game have at it. Then again, holding gold is also speculative but at least there is a real asset, not a virtual one.

It is unlikely that the US government will ever allow a crypto-currency as legal tender, at least not if it is outside their control. You will note that moving $10k or more in cash requires reporting to the Feds; they do not like that crypto-currencies are used to circumvent that. It will be interesting to see if Amazon does create one, and then if it does if there is a mechanism for reporting ownership for large transfers. My guess (and it is just that) is that the legal screws are going to tighten down on them. We'll see..

Greg

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

... It will be interesting to see if Amazon does create one, and then if it does if there is a mechanism for reporting ownership for large transfers. My guess (and it is just that) is that the legal screws are going to tighten down on them. We'll see...

Good question.

The potential launch of Facebook’s (FB) Libra, and Walmart’s (WMT) stablecoin, could eventually force Amazon to enter the cryptocurrency space. The company may either have to accept these cryptocurrencies, for payment, or launch its own.
Facebook has repeatedly highlighted that its main motivation in launching Libra, is to reach the world’s unbanked, and the underbanked. Therefore, if Amazon refuses to acknowledge the digital asset, it stands to lose a significant e-commerce opportunity.
Walmart, which has also applied for a patent for a stablecoin mechanism, is a key Amazon competitor. Weekly, around 265 million customers visit its 11,500 physical stores across 27 countries. If Walmart were to launch a stablecoin, Amazon could be impacted significantly.
Patrick Gauthier, Vice President of Amazon Pay, , has described the Libra as speculative, further adding that:
“At Amazon, we deal in not really the speculative but in the now.”
Brainstorm Finance 2019: Technology And The Many Ways To Pay Online
➥

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBNo...youtu.be&t=645

[rabbi]

All these big companies have zero chance to roll out a global crypto currency.

If any of the global players want to get into this they will be regulated to death. The national banks & governments have far too much to loose.

Maybe the US would lead and a few corrupt 3rd world governments would follow, but the world? Nope.
Maybe 10 years ago and maybe in 10 years - but certainly not today.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

No argument that the big banks are grifters; still, they don't usually just steal money from you. Well, not the commercial banks, except maybe Wells Fargo... The investment banks, and Wall St. generally, are all about separating you from your money. Deutche Bank made the mistake of wanting to be a big player on the world stage of investment banks - that is a bomb ticking along... For garden variety checking and savings, kept under the FDIC limits, there shouldn't be a problem.



The difference of course is that BitCoin is set up to be very useful for criminals to transfer ill gotten gains; the Wall St. banks are the criminals...



Greg

I guess you didn’t hear about the royal commission into banking misconduct in Australia recently.