Prices not going down??

[pt49]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Your figures nicely show the intrinsic value of a BC here. Pretty close to 0.04, and that was after a year of exponential growth.

OK Mr financial expert, what EXACTLY has been the S&P500 or the DOW "Intrinsic Value" been over the exact same time frame been?

Of course, I don't expect you to even bother answering.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by pt49

OK Mr financial expert, what EXACTLY has been the S&P500 or the DOW "Intrinsic Value" been over the exact same time frame been?

Of course, I don't expect you to even bother answering.

I am no financial expert - I am an IT expert.

But my guess is:
The intrinsic value of the DOW is the net asset value of the companies it contains.

Imagine everybody lost faith in BC at once. Simply because this mass psychosis is over. Like a bitcoin bank run. What is the net value of a BC then? 0

And now everybody lost faith in a company. Lets keep it simple and say its a healthy company that own facilities to produce something valuable.
What is the net value then? The buildings, facitlities, machines, patents, ... Which certainly is more than 0.

[Chotu]

Does anyone else see Bitcoin as a currency or does everyone view it as an investment?

I see it as a currency that is sometimes awkward to spend and subject to a lot of volatility.

I mean, it wasn't created as an investment tool. It was created to be a digital currency.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Does anyone else see Bitcoin as a currency or does everyone view it as an investment?

I see it as a currency that is sometimes awkward to spend and subject to a lot of volatility.

For me its THE fiat currency. Much like SDR

But for some reason some people believe its an investment. Sometimes more people, sometimes fewer people. Which drives the "value" just like in the tulips crisis.

IOTA for example is different. That one actually has a use case in the real world - but not the publicity of BC so nobody cares.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Does anyone else see Bitcoin as a currency or does everyone view it as an investment?

I see it as a currency that is sometimes awkward to spend and subject to a lot of volatility.

I mean, it wasn't created as an investment tool. It was created to be a digital currency.

What will be the interest rate charged on a bitcoin mortgage ?

[pt49]

To counter the nutters who don't understand longer time-frame investing...

There are traders and investors... they differ GREATLY.

Traders SPECULATE... maybe on an hourly, daily or weekly time frame... they regularly win an lose, but 95% of them lose overall. Brokers LOVE these people.

Investors on the other hand... put money in the market long term. These people are NOT short term "Gamblers" after a quick dollar.
They are willing to wait years to see their anticipated return on their investment.

The ultimate "Investors" are those people who buy farm land, and then pour good money into machinery, seed, fertilizer, time and labour hoping to reap a profit. Most farmers are extremely lucky to see a 3% gain per year overall... but in 50 years on a farm, that is quite a good return.

I am 72 years old, I have had hundreds of jobs all over the world.
I have been a timber mill laborer (lumber worker for you yanks), a vegetable picker (beans, peas, corn), brickies laborer, construction worker, heavy equipment operator (bulldozers etc), hippie back packer, crew on very large sail boats (over 120' and 16,000 sea miles under sail), ski lift operator, contract cleaner, hotel/restaurant worker, cook, hotel and motel owner, farmer of beef cattle (small scale), forex trader, computer builder (there's only about 9 screws), greyhound breeder and trainer... currently I'm training 26 racing dogs as a "Hobby".

Today, ALL my spare money goes into buying Bitcoin, and I don't care a flying **** what any of you "experts" think... I can see the future... PERIOD.

[pt49]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Does anyone else see Bitcoin as a currency or does everyone view it as an investment?

I see it as a currency that is sometimes awkward to spend and subject to a lot of volatility.

I mean, it wasn't created as an investment tool. It was created to be a digital currency.

Bitcoin may become a currency in time, but not yet. There are handling and custodial hurdles to be overcome.
This should occur in time... "Rome wasn't built in a day."

True it was invented to be a future currency... but adoption takes time.
At the present it is viewed as a "Store of Value" much as gold and silver are... as such it is seen as a "speculative Investment".

[pt49]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I am no financial expert - I am an IT expert.

But my guess is:
The intrinsic value of the DOW is the net asset value of the companies it contains.

Imagine everybody lost faith in Bitcoin at once. Simply because this mass psychosis is over. Like a bitcoin bank run. What is the net value of a BC then? 0

And now everybody lost faith in a company. Lets keep it simple and say its a healthy company that own facilities to produce something valuable.
What is the net value then? The buildings, facitlities, machines, patents, ... Which certainly is more than 0.

Go visit Chicago and decide what defunct businesses are worth after the companies moved manufacturing to China 20 years ago.
OK, maybe the "company" still exists, but the empty building full of old machinery and unemployed workers are still all in Chicago... valued at ZERO.

[pt49]

Originally Posted by slug

What will be the interest rate charged on a bitcoin mortgage ?

It will in in Sat's... as for the rate, that is between the lender and borrower to agree upon.

Since time began, lenders have been rogues and borrowers have been victims.

[hpeer]

For some years I was involved eight electrical contracting and had some contact with company pricing.

The electrical contractor is worth the sum of:
All his assets: trucks, equipment, warehouses, stored material
All his contracts anticipate profits, and some projects carry negative value
Some small amount for the reputation of the Owner and staff and
Some small amount for the ability of his organization to operate efficiently

On the negative side is that the new owner needs to assume he melds well with the existing organization and that it may need fundamental structural reforms to bring it into the company. In the process he may well loose his most valuable staff who take client contacts with them. And there is significant risk of there being hidden problems with projects.

I’ve seen a relatively well run organization sell for a shockingly low price.

The new owner was impatient and declared bankruptcy before 3 years. A friend of mine then bought all the trucks, at a discount, started a new company with a deceptively similar name, hired all the ex-employees and made it a success. It was an entirely new company, he bought trucks, not risk, and was able to transfer the reputation. I think he negotiated with the underwriter to take over some of the old projects.

The name change was like from “Joes Plumbing Co.” to “Joes Plumbing Inc.”

[pt49]

Think about this for a bit...

"Inflation is the LEADING cause of wealth inequality in the world."

What is pouring the equivalent of 20 trillion dollars of cash into the worlds financial system going to do?

Personally myself, I don't think it's going to improve the lives of poor people, nor the lives of middle class people.

It is ONLY going to cause MASSIVE inflation over the next few years, leading to hyperinflation... a la Zimbabwe.

[pt49]

Poor old Zimbabwe... inflated their currency to trillions only to drop back to now using the USD as currency.

Pity Zimbabwe... out of the frying pan, into the fire.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by pt49

At the present it is viewed as a "Store of Value" much as gold and silver are... as such it is seen as a "speculative Investment".

Gold has been viewed as a safe haven for how long? Maybe 5.000 or 10.000 years?
When have you first heard of Bitcoin? Maybe 2016 or 2017?

I learned about it around Dec 2010. I am in the industry and several mining tools happen to be build in my programming language of choice. I set up a mining process over the easter holidays 2011 just to understand what it does.
I lost these BCs when I cleared my HDD just a few months later because I did not care about them. I don't even rememeber how many I had, they were worthless anyway.

Who would have thought back then that a mass psychosis of global scale was coming? Now grandma buys BCs and calls this investing...


You are investing in a market that everyone else uses for gambling. Good luck. You are old enough.

30 years from now nobody will even remember BC. Just like nobody remembers the predominant PRG file format from the 80s.




As to value of companies:
Just because companies move their production facilities to more profitable grounds doesn't mean that the company, or the DOW looses value. Just the building in Chicago is now worth less, but probably not worthless.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by pt49

No asset class in history has performed as well as this has.

There was a guy pushing an asset class that did better. What was his name? Seems to me it's pretty memorable?

Oh, yeah. Mr. Ponzi.

Of course, if it's a "currency" wildly increasing values means people don't spend it. It's in massive deflation and with an ever shrinking number of coins, it can never pull out of deflation...until it collapses.

That's a big part of the logic behind countries shooting for a 2% inflation rate. It encourages people to use it as currency as it's not becoming more valuable but the inflation is small enough that it's still useful.

[Steve_C]

I thought this was supposed to be a discussion about the current pricing of Vessels due to current economic situation. I am very interested to see and hear observations concerning the impacts to the market.

I am NOT really interested in hearing long arguments about Bitcoin vs Gold vs other currencies. Perhaps you guys who are should start a new thread about this. That way the title of the thread would reflect the discussion and those of us not interested can avoid it!

Thanks!!!