Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Cant resist, he he, totally off topic, but i let you think where they fit in this Bavaria the real backstay.... lifelines??

LOL! Where did you find that one? I'd forgotten I'd posted that somewhere, but the original is definitely mine, shot at the Annapolis Show a few years ago... :-)

Here's another, from a larger Bavaria... Nice match, eh?





On this Beneteau, apparently it was a bit too much trouble to properly align the U-bolt with the load... That might cost more, I suppose... :-)





Now, before some new production boat owners get their panties in a twist, I'll mention that the Valiant 42 I just took south has a similar degree of mis-alignment between the fore and aft lower shrouds, and their respective chainplates, half-heartedly 'corrected' with the insertion of a toggle...

Still, I'll take a mis-aligned chainplate over a similar U-bolt as a shroud attachment, every time... :-)

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

Probably better off paying on a loan and, yes, buying used vs. new.

Agreed. That's where the smart money is. A very lightly used, newish production boat.

[smackdaddy]

Pppfffftt....look how lightly built these new cell phones are...



You think that wimpy little iPhone on the right will stand up to any real use. No freakin' way. Give me V1.0. THAT'S a strong phone. And it's beige!

[NorthPacific]

I believe I have read that most "modern designed" high production boats are built with the charter fleet as their prime customers.

That means wide beams that hold their volume to accommodate "sate rooms" aft. Profitability means cutting costs as the fate of bullet proof westerly and moody yachts shows what holding onto aged concepts of strength and practicality in a seaway does not sell well with most modern customers.

Having said that many of the blue water sailors we have met over the years all have said that they have seen a kaleidoscope of makes sizes and types all in the same anchorages in the middle of the southern oceans. Non of the cruisers that stayed with us over the hers had the same boat but all had been there and done it.

My own boat an older Dufour35 was built under the title as a fast blue water cruiser. Strong with many of the sea keeping characteristics that give s you hope you made the right choice. However as I add, change or fix this and that at times I shake my head and think why did they not do this or that when they built it. The answer is usually cost in time and materials. If we all could design and have our boats built for us they would still all be different. Now that would be an interesting thread:-)

Not that this is not:-)
Steve

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Now, before some new production boat owners get their panties in a twist,

Way too late, Jon. A lot of these boys -- particularly the Hunter variant -- seem really sensitive.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

The original question was what production boats can be used in serious blue water?

The answer given by dozens with hundreds of examples is:

ALMOST ANY PRODUCTION BOAT HAS DONE A CIRCUMNAVIGATION

The rest of this discussion is:

Tacoma - you're exactly right. That's why the title of this thread is a statement not a question.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fozrunner

So, from what I've gathered so far, when I buy my slightly used mass production boat

1. I will check and possibly put backing plates on cleats that may be subject to extra strain

2. Since the boat will probably be about 5 yrs old, as a preventative measure I'll look at replacing the through hulls (to bronze or other durable seacock).

Does anyone have an approximate cost of replacing the through hulls? Obviously depends on the boat- but a ball park figure?

Depends on how many you need to replace. We did the labor ourselves before the boat went back in the water last May. It's not difficult, but having an extra person to help is nice. I brought along a friend who unknown to me had a BIG drinking problem, which complicated everything. I would have been much better off alone.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by neilpride

15 years WTF!!!

Last year we replaced the through hulls on my parents boat. They were still the original, and 25 yo.... We should have probably replaced them earlier.
And that on a Jeanneau, built to a price point...

So yes, they do last.

The ting is, most production boats here don't sail that often. And spend half the year on dry land.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

You are a Swiss citizen? If you are you are required to have a licence to sail a sailboat with more than 15m2 of sail and also if you have a boat you are subjected to mandatory technical controls each three years. Without that you don't have the document that authorizes you to use the boat.

I am not a Swiss citizen, (as about 1/4 of the people living here). However, this 15m2 law only applies to inland waters, and yes, I did have to sit an exam and get a sailing license for the first time in my life when I moved here. Quite interesting experience. The inspection boats undergo here has mostly to do with the engine. Emission standards are stict. But then the boat I sail on the lakes here has electric propulsion.
For sea going yachts under Swiss Flag there are also requirement. But I'd probably flag my boat under Jersey flag.

Which brings us back to boats...

I follow your blog, and find it an interesting read. This leads to a kind of a dilemma I have at the moment.
My horizon for buying a boat is about 2 years from now. I'd want something fast, fun, that I can sail by myself, but also take my partner along with.
So far there are two boats that caught my fancy: The RM 1070 (in the version with swing keel) and the forthcoming Pogo 36.
However, neither these boats fare very well when you have to beat up wind, wind against the tide.
And sailing in the North Sea and the English Channel it appears to me that "close hauled, wind against the tide" is how you end up spending most of the sailing.
I want a boat that is a bit special. That is an irrational requirement, I know.
I want a fast boat. Easy to solo sail. But it will be a boat for exploring Europe, not crossing the Atlantic.
What boats should I look at?
Or should I have an RM 1070 delivered two years from now and be done with :-)

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Pppfffftt....look how lightly built these new cell phones are...



You think that wimpy little iPhone on the right will stand up to any real use. No freakin' way. Give me V1.0. THAT'S a strong phone. And it's beige!

God another classic response when you have no other ideas. This one is funnier than the fender washer fuse award winner. Just accept that these boats are built by penny pinching accountants. They get the job done but don't have much in reserve, some folks like to have a little reserve!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Last year we replaced the through hulls on my parents boat. They were still the original, and 25 yo.... We should have probably replaced them earlier.
And that on a Jeanneau, built to a price point...

So yes, they do last.

The ting is, most production boats here don't sail that often. And spend half the year on dry land.

I'll bet you a beer that a 25 year old Jenny had bronze seacocks, back then the build quality was much better.

[TanzerTom]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

To answer the question posed by the OP we need to consider much more than the spec sheet of a boat.

The topic posed is survivability. Survivability is an emergent property of a system. What does this mean? An emergent property has no direct causal link to just part of the system such as the the specs of a boat.

Thinking of a yacht as a system, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, means we need to include all the elements in play when the boat is used. This means the crew, the weather and local conditions, vessel condition, equipment, maintenance condition, remaining fatigue life of major structural elements and a myriad of other information.

Unlike cars we have little or no statistical data, from either destructive and certification testing or from in use data like accident statistics, to claim one vessel is safer or better than another. Statistics also represent a sufficiently large measurement set which is not available for yachts.

Ship ratings, for example, are only a spec sheet based rating and are not validated through testing. They don't include key elements of the system like crew experience, vessel condition and local conditions. They only satisfy liability and marketing needs. They can't be used to determine survivability.

So to answer the OP's question rephrased as which boats are blue water capable we can only base our response on empirical data. So the boats that have circumnavigated or survived a blue water crossing are recursively blue water capable.

We could continue this discussion on other 'ilities' like livability, maintainability, manouevrability.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Fair point! I'd put lovability at the top. No passion, no deal.

[SimonV]

My boat at the moment is 38 years old and keeps me busy with maintenance, but I consider that normal. I plan on going to the med and getting a 2000 something 46-50ish Bavaria, so I guess a 15 year old newer boat and I will just keep on keeping on with maintenance. We average 5000 miles a year so a newer boat may be easier to work with.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[colemj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

15 years WTF!!!

Another one:

Sorry, but Bavaria's reply is pure BS!
YM pro's are right!
Only Bronze/Merlone seacocks are real marine grade! All other Brass/SS/Copper etc are good only for bathrooms.
To save a dime they were ready to put us all in danger GRRRRR!
The cost of good marine grade seacocks is almost nothing in the total cost of any boat.

Once again: DZR brass is high-quality and perfectly acceptable for use in this application. This stuff is widely used in industrial applications that are far more corrosive than simply sitting in cold seawater. It also is not cheap.

Blakes and Isis use only DZR brass in their seacocks and valves. What is your opinion on the quality of these? Most put them at the top.

I don't know what type of brass is used in all of these boats with problem seacocks, but if it is indeed DZR, then the problem is not with the seacock material.

Personally, I don't like metal skin fittings at all, and see way too many boats with electrolysis/corrosion problems, or berthed next to boat that have these, that have nothing to do with skin fitting material at all. If Kenomac's fitting was truly DZR like he says, then he has a larger problem to figure out.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Polux

With a 5 year old boat probably you will not need anything, just checking everything including the rudder. Probably you will have 3 or 4 years with almost no maintenance with the boat. Best age to buy an used boat in my opinion. With some luck and if you look at the right places you can get if for half the price of a new one.

This describes our experience with our boat exactly.

I would modify it to exclude ex-charter boats, though. At least those from the Caribe charter markets.

Mark