Registration vs License (CND)

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by helise

Hi! Mike,

License is good within port limits and/or territorial waters of that particular country, and Registering can be use and recognized internationally.

License is expiring yearly and Registering has no expiring date, but some port of registry such as Panama etc their certificate of registry is valid for two years and so on for the purpose of collecting yacht's tax or annual tonnage dues.

Regards.

Elise.

Not quote accurate, Registration expires every 3 years but is currently renewed free of charge. A license is valid for 10 years, If you have a loan to purchase you vessel, you are going to need to have your boat registered not licensed.

read more here: Canadian Register of Vessels - Transport Canada

[Mirage35]

[QUOTE=Dangen;2342156]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

In The province of Quebec, the QST is applicable on used boats. I bought a used boat in Ontario that I Licenced in Quebec. Couple months later, I received a letter from Revenu Quebec asking me to send them a copy of the bill of sales, which I did, thinking that this would prove that I bought the boat used and that I would have no Tax to pay... WRONG!!! shortly after I received an "avis de cotisation" for $4500. Lesson learned, I should of checked the applicable laws first.

The boat I bought was registered and If I would of transferred the registry it would of cost me $250 and the provincial government would have not seen the transaction and not steal my $4500 dollars.

Well, this led me to investigate further, so I talked to my best contact on the subject, who is a GST/QST auditor for Revenu Québec. He sent an email with a short explanation, followed by a phone call with a long explanation.

The email said: "Il n'y a pas de taxe de vente provinciale (TVQ) sur la vente de biens meubles corporels d'occasion entre 2 particuliers non inscrits." There is no provincial sales tax payable on the sale of used goods between two individuals. (Translation slightly abbreviated for clarity.)

The phone call said: It's complicated. Motor vehicles are the principal exception; they always charge tax on those because, well, because they can. On other used goods sold between individuals within the province no tax is charged. On personal goods imported into Québec from another province there would normally be no tax charged on used goods. (The logic of a value added tax.) On new goods imported into Québec the tax is payable, and should either not be charged in or should be refunded by the jurisdiction where the goods were purchased.

[Side note: when I buy things in Ontario for delivery, and no tax is charged, I always self assess and pay the tax owing in Québec. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.]

So far, so clear, but this is where he started to obfuscate.

On relatively high value goods imported into the province, if Revenu Québec is aware, they may try to assess QST. And then it started to get really fuzzy - he agreed with me that there didn't seem to be any logical justification for this, but noted that article (I don't remember and I don't care) of the law was not very clear. But that they try anyway. And if you don't agree with their assessment you can challenge it and have a pretty good chance of winning.

So I stick with my previous statement, but recognize that others' experience may be different.

And if you read all the way to here and understood any part of it, you must be Canadian.

[helise]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Not quote accurate, Registration expires every 3 years but is currently renewed free of charge. A license is valid for 10 years, If you have a loan to purchase you vessel, you are going to need to have your boat registered not licensed.

read more here: Canadian Register of Vessels - Transport Canada

Hi! PCMM,

My thread on second paragraph was refer to Panama and other registries, not Canada.
Please read and understand it properly.

Regards.

Elise.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by helise

Hi! PCMM,

My thread on second paragraph was refer to Panama and other registries, not Canada.
Please read and understand it properly.

Regards.

Elise.

Elise, please refer to the title of the thread, we are discussing Canadian registration vs licensing. While you brought up Panana, it's irrelevant to the discussion, please read the thread.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by alctel

I bought a licensed vessel and registered it and it was just $250. Couldn't you just drop the registration and do a new one if you were changing everything?

There would be different fees for that. Also, its not just fees, there are forms that need to be filled out, some required to be notarized. Keep in mind its a system intended for big ships.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

We’ve been told it is Italian (Sicilian dialect to be exact) for something like: My Little Sweetheart. It’s a terrible name for Anglo countries, and too long in general, but it came with the boat. She’s got a history; a pedigree. She’s been around the world (or major parts of it). Doesn’t seem right to take it away from her, even if all our Anglo friends stumble and stammer over it. We basically respond to anything over the VHF that sounds remotely like us.I look forward to sailing into some port and being greeted by someone who remembers her.

Unfortunately though, “Pachina” also has a rather unsavoury slag definition. So far I’ve not been punched out by anyone .



Yup, trying giving that out fast over the radio .

Don't know if the regulation still exists but at one time names had to be in either English or French - not that this was ever enforced. Out boat name starts in Chinese "Ai Ni" which means 'love you'. We added the 'A' at the end so it was no longer Chinese and since Canadians say 'eh' a lot we tell people, mainly Americans that our boat name means, 'love you, eh'.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by pcmm

If you have a loan to purchase you vessel, you are going to need to have your boat registered not licensed.

read more here: Canadian Register of Vessels - Transport Canada

I hate to nitpick, but I will anyway....Your vessel must be registered to have a MORTGAGE, which is a special type of loan. You can use any valuable item to secure a LOAN or LINE OF CREDIT at the discretion of the lendor. In general, banks are not interested in 40 year old boats as collateral.

I won't get into the difference between a LOAN, MORTGAGE, and LOC here...its just too boring, even for a canadian.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I hate to nitpick, but I will anyway....Your vessel must be registered to have a MORTGAGE, which is a special type of loan. You can use any valuable item to secure a LOAN or LINE OF CREDIT at the discretion of the lendor. In general, banks are not interested in 40 year old boats as collateral.

I won't get into the difference between a LOAN, MORTGAGE, and LOC here...its just too boring, even for a canadian.

Totaly agree! When we bought our first boat, the bank wouldn't issue a mortgage because of age, they don't even like boats that are over 10 years old for Mortgages (or didn't at the time) so we got a great big loan with our bank! Agreed with a loan you don't specifically need to register your vessel. Still a good idea anyway in my opinion.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Don't know if the regulation still exists but at one time names had to be in either English or French - not that this was ever enforced. Out boat name starts in Chinese "Ai Ni" which means 'love you'. We added the 'A' at the end so it was no longer Chinese and since Canadians say 'eh' a lot we tell people, mainly Americans that our boat name means, 'love you, eh'.

Haven’t heard of that Aini eh, hope it’s not an issue. Our boat was Documented in the USA before we bought her and moved her to Canada. As you say, there are lots of non-English/French names on boats. If it is in the regs it’s certainly not being enforced.

Originally Posted by pcmm

Totaly agree! When we bought our first boat, the bank wouldn't issue a mortgage because of age, they don't even like boats that are over 10 years old for Mortgages (or didn't at the time) so we got a great big loan with our bank! Agreed with a loan you don't specifically need to register your vessel. Still a good idea anyway in my opinion.

Just a FYI: when we bought our current boat it was 34 years old. I secured a personal loan for part of the price using the boat as collateral. Boat was not Registered. I did not have to produce any special loan survey, and age was never questioned. I did go through my local credit union where I had been banking for many years though, so perhaps that explains the difference.

[Mirage35]

Sorry, but I'm going to revive this thread with another question. Proof of ownership.

(For those just coming across the thread, we're specifically discussing Canadian regulations. That I started my question with the word "sorry" probably already made that clear.)

So, if I decide to buy a boat that's not registered, just licensed, what do I ask for as proof of ownership? All of the information I have seen stresses that the licence does not serve that purpose.

Other large value goods that I have bought (cars, houses) have a well established legal basis for this. Unregistered boats don't seem to, but before I write a cheque for that kind of money it would be nice to have something official. What should I be asking for?

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Sorry, but I'm going to revive this thread with another question. Proof of ownership.

(For those just coming across the thread, we're specifically discussing Canadian regulations. That I started my question with the word "sorry" probably already made that clear.)

So, if I decide to buy a boat that's not registered, just licensed, what do I ask for as proof of ownership? All of the information I have seen stresses that the licence does not serve that purpose.

Other large value goods that I have bought (cars, houses) have a well established legal basis for this. Unregistered boats don't seem to, but before I write a cheque for that kind of money it would be nice to have something official. What should I be asking for?

Previous owner's bill of sale when he/she purchased.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

So, if I decide to buy a boat that's not registered, just licensed, what do I ask for as proof of ownership? All of the information I have seen stresses that the licence does not serve that purpose.

There is only one absolute proof of ownership of a boat....a mini van full of old sails and weird parts that go with the boat that no one will ever use, but no one will ever throw out either. It just keeps getting passed from owner to owner. Broken hatches, used hoses, a Loran set, spinnaker gear, half a rebuild kit for the head, a container of sail slides that don't match the boom or mast, filters that don't match the engine, the original fore stay (from before the furler went on), a non-working hand pump, a handful of expensive looking stainless steel widgets, a small Russian anchor, and at least 8 things in original boxes that even the Smithsonian could not identify. Only the true owner of a boat would have these things.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by hamburking

There is only one absolute proof of ownership of a boat....a mini van full of old sails and weird parts that go with the boat that no one will ever use, but no one will ever throw out either. It just keeps getting passed from owner to owner. Broken hatches, used hoses, a Loran set, spinnaker gear, half a rebuild kit for the head, a container of sail slides that don't match the boom or mast, filters that don't match the engine, the original fore stay (from before the furler went on), a non-working hand pump, a handful of expensive looking stainless steel widgets, a small Russian anchor, and at least 8 things in original boxes that even the Smithsonian could not identify. Only the true owner of a boat would have these things.

Funny but probably close to true - I have most of those items - except for the Loran and the Russian anchor.

[Comix Bay]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Sorry, but I'm going to revive this thread with another question. Proof of ownership.

(For those just coming across the thread, we're specifically discussing Canadian regulations. That I started my question with the word "sorry" probably already made that clear.)

So, if I decide to buy a boat that's not registered, just licensed, what do I ask for as proof of ownership? All of the information I have seen stresses that the licence does not serve that purpose.

Other large value goods that I have bought (cars, houses) have a well established legal basis for this. Unregistered boats don't seem to, but before I write a cheque for that kind of money it would be nice to have something official. What should I be asking for?

Look up Transport Canada's Form 6 Bill of Sale, three pages long. May be what you want.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Previous owner's bill of sale when he/she purchased.

And current bill of sale. If the boat is registered in another country, you'll need a deletion certificate from that registry as well. And if the boat is larger than 16m LOA you will need a tonnage survey and calculation. That is a LOT of money and is the reason my boat will have a Malaysian flag rather than a Canadian flag. Not that I'm resident in either country.