Religious Commercial or Political Personal Signal Flags at Marina slip

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by requiem

IIRC one of the contentious issues back when the US Bill of Rights was proposed, was the worry that enumerating specific rights would cause some to think that "if it wasn't listed, it wasn't a right".

The specific rights demanded by the colonies were for the most part, directly related to current events.
12 amendments were proposed, 10 ratified. The most violated to date is the 10th, followed closely by the 2nd.
The 10th amendment, plainly stated, specifies that ANYTHING not specifically stated in the Constitution falls under the jurisdiction of the State, which begs the question "Why is the Federal Govt so damn big?"

[sailingchiro]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Someone will figure out how to turn a f4rt into a re-election ad. Give it time.

They have, have you heard that cow gas was killing our planet.

[sailingchiro]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s coming up on being almost 200 years ago, no person is still alive from that time.
Aren’t we way past that by now? Of course not, never will be, and the reason is that many have their power base in racism and the perceived existence of it.
What the German Government did to certain minorities In the 30’s and 40’s was worse than slavery, yet most don’t rally against it as a cause.
What the Japanese did to all their neighbors, was at least as bad or worse than slavery and again you don’t see rallies agains them.

Slavery exists today, I saw it in Kuwait. You could try to argue it’s not actually ownership, but it is. I was being escorted thought the airport just after we freed Kuwait by a Kuwaiti and we walked by one of the gates Where there was a commotion going on, there were maybe a dozen what I would describe as being little girls holding signs with numbers on them, the Kuwaiti men were obviously bidding. I asked my escort what was going on.
He said, oh, that’s just the new maids.
All the physical labor was done by small dark colored men, they all wore the same blue coverall, the Americans nicknamed them the “little blue dudes”. The Kuwaiti people did not treat them well at all. I took on home one day, there were about five of them living in a single car garage on cardboard, they got water from a pipe that dropped water from it, obviously an airconditioner drain. I met him when he was swiping some water from where we were staying which was Camp Doha Kuwait. I took him home that day and we became sort of friends he would stop by where I worked often and I would give him things, food etc.

Really had me wondering if we were on the right side.

So all you people who want to act all indignant about such insignificant things as what silly flag your neighbor wants to fly on their boat or start assigning meanings to things that don’t exist, if you really actually felt that way and aren’t just wanting to find a cause, get off your butt and do something about it.
There is an incredible amount to actual real physical racism in the world you can fight against, children who are being abused and taken advantage of, there is no shortage of wrong things being done.
However I know that most of you just want to feel superior and smug, display that your better than others is the actual motivation. Your the same people that bought a new Toyota Prius years ago when that was the popular thing to do, you shop at Whole Foods and talk about saving the Earth or the Whales or whatever, but in fact other than a lot of complaining, you actually don’t do anything, you may attend some rallies or similar that make you feel superior, but that’s about it.

Yep, that is about all that needs to be said.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

They have, have you heard that cow gas was killing our planet.

I thought it was sheep farts in NZ and Oz destroying the Ozone layer that was the threat..

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

Looking the other way always leads forward.

Tell that to the folks currently protesting killings by police. There's been too much looking the other way, for hundreds of years.

Sometimes we need to stare down the problem, lest we never even acknowledge it.

[Go Wildcats]

100% agree. I was being sarcastic.

Originally Posted by Pete17C

Tell that to the folks currently protesting killings by police. There's been too much looking the other way, for hundreds of years.

Sometimes we need to stare down the problem, lest we never even acknowledge it.

[Go Wildcats]

I initially typed in response to your points about Germany and other countries, but realized it was off topic - as much as speaking about the Nuremberg Trials would be interesting to me. The topic is about flying religious and political flags and their meaning in the US and how to handle it. I'm all for freedom of self expression and to hold any view one wants. But not when they advocate discrimination and hate. Many people are shining a light on the cockroaches that roam freely among us espousing their hate, often hiding behind southern pride and guns. I neither drive a "green" car, shop at whole foods or attend rallies. But I do call out racism whether on an internet board or in public or wherever I see it. I've stood between victims of racism and the people delivering it. Many people are making efforts to change the world for the better and not everyone can do it the way you see fit, but every corrective action should be applauded, not ridiculed because they may drive a Prius.

What you see as a silly flag, others see their grandparents being tormented by the same thinking of people waving it proudly. Believe it or, that flag does have a meaning and it's not unity for all people.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s coming up on being almost 200 years ago, no person is still alive from that time.
Aren’t we way past that by now? Of course not, never will be, and the reason is that many have their power base in racism and the perceived existence of it.
What the German Government did to certain minorities In the 30’s and 40’s was worse than slavery, yet most don’t rally against it as a cause.
What the Japanese did to all their neighbors, was at least as bad or worse than slavery and again you don’t see rallies agains them.

Slavery exists today, I saw it in Kuwait. You could try to argue it’s not actually ownership, but it is. I was being escorted thought the airport just after we freed Kuwait by a Kuwaiti and we walked by one of the gates Where there was a commotion going on, there were maybe a dozen what I would describe as being little girls holding signs with numbers on them, the Kuwaiti men were obviously bidding. I asked my escort what was going on.
He said, oh, that’s just the new maids.
All the physical labor was done by small dark colored men, they all wore the same blue coverall, the Americans nicknamed them the “little blue dudes”. The Kuwaiti people did not treat them well at all. I took on home one day, there were about five of them living in a single car garage on cardboard, they got water from a pipe that dropped water from it, obviously an airconditioner drain. I met him when he was swiping some water from where we were staying which was Camp Doha Kuwait. I took him home that day and we became sort of friends he would stop by where I worked often and I would give him things, food etc.

Really had me wondering if we were on the right side.

So all you people who want to act all indignant about such insignificant things as what silly flag your neighbor wants to fly on their boat or start assigning meanings to things that don’t exist, if you really actually felt that way and aren’t just wanting to find a cause, get off your butt and do something about it.
There is an incredible amount to actual real physical racism in the world you can fight against, children who are being abused and taken advantage of, there is no shortage of wrong things being done.
However I know that most of you just want to feel superior and smug, display that your better than others is the actual motivation. Your the same people that bought a new Toyota Prius years ago when that was the popular thing to do, you shop at Whole Foods and talk about saving the Earth or the Whales or whatever, but in fact other than a lot of complaining, you actually don’t do anything, you may attend some rallies or similar that make you feel superior, but that’s about it.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by dergon

Good morning, all -

I wanted to bounce a protocol/ etiquette question around the forum and try to get some guidance.


At our local marina a few vessels have taking to flying overtly religious and/or political personal signal flags.

Some of the membership have expressed concerns over the content. Other are concerned because the prominence of some of the flags are so great that they are seen from the nearby road and from the water and could give the impression of endorsement.


Our conduct rules only address "lewd" or "inappropriate" flag flying.

Without wanting to get too much in to the opinion side on this, I was hoping that people might be able to link or direct me to some other marinas / clubs policies on the issue so I can see how other places handle this if it comes up.

Thanks for the help.

dergon

Dergon, if you are still following this thread, you undoubtedly have taken note that there are many persons that fundamentally misunderstand what basic protocol & etiquette are. There are those that view the world from their own perspective first and foremost and do not perceive that there is an underlying social decorum wherein one recognizes to address one's behavior following rules or customs that would be acceptable by and considerate to others. Some will exercise their "rights" even to the point of being outwardly and unnecessarily offensive from the perspective of others. There are those that will shout when instead they could simply speak softly, or play there music or talk show loudly so that everyone can hear from a far distance, instead of just using ear buds so as to make a marina a quiet zone. There are those that will let their halyards slap when they could be easily pulled away from a mast. There are those Yankee and Red Sox fans that will wear their favorite teams logos into the opposing teams town, and enjoy verbally haranguing about their team.

There are those times and situations in life where one should ask Why? before doing or saying or displaying. Just because one can does not mean one should or needs to. One should discern between rights, and being right.

Specifically as to your posted subject matter one should ask: Does it benefit a marina to have political and religious, signal flags displayed, or commercial flags displayed? How does a vessel communicating such non-marine "signal" aid another vessel that can sight such signal? Are such signal flags unnecessary for vessels to move safely into, from or remain in their slip?

I think the answer to such questions are that no they do not serve a marine related purpose and are unnecessary to the functioning / safety of the marina, and could be removed without causing any difficulty or harm for any vessel owner. A content neutral regulation that is based on aesthetics alone is viable but safety would also be a prime reason, wherein only specific marine related signal communications and vessel nationality indicators are displayed.

It can be difficult to view a signal flag or signage amongst a clutter of drying or dirty laundry. E.g., Is that black object an "at anchor" display, or just someone's dark shorts hung to dry?

Albeit is can be fun to try to read the messages that are displayed when a boat is festooned with a full array of alphabetical signal flags. One message that I liked read: Toot, if you can read this.

To quote from https://astrolabesailing.com/2014/02/20/flags/

There is a whole lot of etiquette surrounding the use of flags, so it is good to read up on how it is all done so you don’t offend anyone and to make sure you obey the number one rule “Look Good” – or alternatively – “make your best efforts to not look like a dick“.
Flags are ‘worn’ by a yacht and ‘flown’ by the owner.

Keeping flags to those that need to be or should be worn and generally avoiding those that are flown is a reasonable approach.


Yachts can ‘dress’ on special occasions, The correct order for flying the signalling flags is as follows – from stem to stern:

E, Q, p3, G, p8, Z, p4, W, p6, P, p1, 1Code, T, Y ,B, X, first Sub, H, third Sub, D, F, second Sub, U, A, O, M, R, p2, J, p0,

N, p9, K, p7, V, p5, L, C, S.



And of course, racing signal flags are an entirely distinct matter.

[Jolly Roger]

As usual, this thread has spun completely off the rails, so there is little point reading any more.
There must be an awful lot of people with nothing else to do with their days. Perhaps they are self-isolating.

[a64pilot]

Speaking of German’s when I lived there pretty much all of them were vehemently against nationalism and things like flying political flags, I doubt there was a law against it, but I can guarantee you that if you did, you would hear about it from your neighbors. It would have not gone well.

If you think about it for just a minute, you’ll understand why, and I think they have a point.
People who fly any kind of political flag aren’t for the most part “supporting” their party or whatever, many are desiring a confrontation or at least to be obnoxious for lack of a better word.
The same reason that some will wear their pants around their butt or whatever, they desire attention for some reason, it’s not because it’s comfortable etc.
I’ve found it best to ignore them, by doing that you deny them the thing they desire. Often if it doesn’t get the desired effect they soon become bored of it and the flag disappears, but if you engage them, that’s what they wanted, then they get to get all indigent etc.
If you argue with them, your getting in the mud with the pig, and all that gets you is covered in mud, and the pig gets what they want, they live in the mud.
So don’t engage that fool with a Rebel flag, or whatever, don’t get in the mud with the pig.
I’m from the South, believe there is such a thing as Southern heritage etc., but I have never and don’t expect I’ll ever fly a Rebel flag, because I’m not desiring a confrontation, and it accomplishes nothing, just makes you look like a fool. But then I have never put a political sign in my yard or ever flown any kind of political flag or whatever.

But it’s not just the Jim Bob Rednecks, the desire for attention crosses all borders, you see it with the cars that go boom with the obnoxious loud bass that rattles their windows, the silly wheels and paint jobs etc.
Also the ones that drive very expensive flashy automobiles, same thing, not much difference at all between them and the cars that go boom. Women that carry $5,000 purses etc. it’s all a variation of wanting attention.

So instead of being outraged by the Trump flag or whatever, ignore them, and feel sorry for the idiot who’s flying it, same for all the others, cause In a way they are pitiful people who need the attention of others.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by wingssail

No valhalla360, you miss-understood the logic which was presented:

No, I understood exactly what he was doing. He was trying to stir the pot while pretending to ask a question. It's a common tactic and he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

"Why is the Federal Govt so damn big?"

Military Industrial Complex?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No, I understood exactly what he was doing. He was trying to stir the pot while pretending to ask a question. It's a common tactic and he knew exactly what he was doing.

Funny. The OP used an abundance of caution to avoid being partisan, yet the near universal conclusion is that this is about a Trump flag. Surely you're not meaning to imply that only Trump supporters choose to stick their endorsement on everything they own, and show it everywhere they go?

Also, you are stating that the OP has a malicious, presumably partisan intent, and have apparently disregarded the possibility that the OP is simply seeking an evenhanded and fair way to stop poliical/religious divisiveness worming its way into a boat club or marina.

I've previously agreed that there's no practical, legal or moral argument to keep any such display out of a marina, but a club is a different matter, and I think any conscientious club leadership would seek to keep the peace and to stay out of controversial areas that have nothing to do with the club's reason for being.

[Go Wildcats]

I agree, a64pilot, I've never visited a country that loves to waive their flag as much as the USA does. But the USA flag is waived far less than the Texas colors in Texas. We have both raised at our house. .

Once again, I agree; Some people are looking for attention through their actions. Not all, but many are. I generally ignore people displaying their ignorance, but have been known to step in when needed. The abundant number of people flying Trump flags far exceeds the number of any other political figure in my lifetime. Most are ignored. A few get attention - more so when they are friends...

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Speaking of German’s when I lived there pretty much all of them were vehemently against nationalism and things like flying political flags, I doubt there was a law against it, but I can guarantee you that if you did, you would hear about it from your neighbors. It would have not gone well.

If you think about it for just a minute, you’ll understand why, and I think they have a point.
People who fly any kind of political flag aren’t for the most part “supporting” their party or whatever, many are desiring a confrontation or at least to be obnoxious for lack of a better word.
The same reason that some will wear their pants around their butt or whatever, they desire attention for some reason, it’s not because it’s comfortable etc.
I’ve found it best to ignore them, by doing that you deny them the thing they desire. Often if it doesn’t get the desired effect they soon become bored of it and the flag disappears, but if you engage them, that’s what they wanted, then they get to get all indigent etc.
If you argue with them, your getting in the mud with the pig, and all that gets you is covered in mud, and the pig gets what they want, they live in the mud.
So don’t engage that fool with a Rebel flag, or whatever, don’t get in the mud with the pig.
I’m from the South, believe there is such a thing as Southern heritage etc., but I have never and don’t expect I’ll ever fly a Rebel flag, because I’m not desiring a confrontation, and it accomplishes nothing, just makes you look like a fool. But then I have never put a political sign in my yard or ever flown any kind of political flag or whatever.

But it’s not just the Jim Bob Rednecks, the desire for attention crosses all borders, you see it with the cars that go boom with the obnoxious loud bass that rattles their windows, the silly wheels and paint jobs etc.
Also the ones that drive very expensive flashy automobiles, same thing, not much difference at all between them and the cars that go boom. Women that carry $5,000 purses etc. it’s all a variation of wanting attention.

So instead of being outraged by the Trump flag or whatever, ignore them, and feel sorry for the idiot who’s flying it, same for all the others, cause In a way they are pitiful people who need the attention of others.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pete17C

Military Industrial Complex?

Probably contributed, but I think it’s pretty simple, actually.
Government is a Bureaucracy, and the purpose of any Bureaucracy is the perpetuation and growth of itself, it’s not to do what it was formed to do. I had to explain that to my Wife several times, she was a school teacher and it took her awhile to realize that the School Boards main concern was not the education of the children, but to protect and perpetuate itself. Once you came to understand and or believe that, then their actions made sense and were predictable.
Then there are a great many people who believe that we need big Government to provide and protect us, where others are concerned that Big Government is a detriment.
It would seem that those that think big Government is a good thing have prevailed.
But it’s the normal progression of any Bureaucracy, especially one that controls it’s own budget.