Repair estimate higher than insured value - any experience?

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Interesting thread. Open market value of boats same model & year as mine is apparently around £30,000. Over the years I have spent "stupid" (but not to me) money on the boat upgrading, renovating & replacing & no way could I buy her equivalent today for that. I have discussed this recently with my insurers (Pantaenius) & we agreed an insured value of £60,000 which would give me a better chance of buying something more like her (but still likely to fall short). My premium has gone up maybe 25% but to my mind there is no point in buying insurance which isnt going to do the job if you make a claim?

Agreed. Pantaenius aren’t cheap, but they will cover for anything and everything that most insurers wouldn’t.

Also, if you can get a surveyor to appraise your boat at a figure you want, an insurer will also consider that when working out an agreed value.

N

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by grantmc

Total constructive loss situation, insurance firm assessed cost of disposal and value of the 'wreck'. Offered me the 'wreck' which I accepted. They simply deducted that value from the total claim value.

Sounds like a good deal for THEM. Why would you do that deal?

If they are going to pay $x to total out the boat, and another $y to dispose of the carcass, why would you allow them to deduct anything from $x, they are already saving $y?

[basssears]

Thanks for the replies everyone, good discussion. Still waiting to hear, nothing to add to the details right now.

As far as my preference, I would like to keep this boat as we're quite attached to it and did a lot of work bringing it to where it is now (heat, instruments, wheel pilot, repairs, furler etc, etc).

I don't believe I undervalued the boat, although I did just take what they stated as the value at face value as it seemed reasonable. This is a boat I bought for $34k, put about $13 into, documented the changes and they came back with a valuation of $52,500 which seemed reasonable. I don't recall anytime that I felt there was an opening to say "how about we value it for more and I'll pay more", to me that would sound like someone fixing to commit insurance fraud but who knows, surely next time around I'll be tuned into this more.

The $52,500 would certainly buy me another Gulf 32 (they go for mid / high 30's in goodish shape) but I don't want to start from scratch on getting her set up the way I want her, I just want to get as much of this boat fixed and come out with something seaworthy.

If anyone has any input on the whole "salvage title" concept as mentioned in previous post (making the comparison to cars) I'd appreciate hearing it. To lay it out, right now if they offered me enough money to get everything except the cosmetics taken care of (and a LOT of the estimate comes down to cosmetics... for example there is a ding in the stern pulpit... it's really kind of fine, maybe a gorilla can't swing from it anymore, but it's just a ding, but the cost of removing / rewelding / replacing is outrageous) where would I stand on future insurance? Not sure if Traveler's would drop me, would anyone else cover me, or is there something out there that makes my HIN uncoverable going forward?

FWIW, so far Traveler's has been reasonable to deal with, I hope that continues.

-- Bass

[jmschmidt]

There is nothing wrong with trying to talk up the insurance company (highly unlikely) while trying to talk down the repair yard (more likely). Then you pay the overage of both out of pocket or skip the non-essential items and DIY.

[Cheechako]

Here's an angle: Get the boat totaled by the insurance company. Only agree to their payment based on you keeping the boat for salvage. I've done this on a car and bought one boat from the owner cheap that had been totaled. There was almost nothing wrong with the boat!

[zstine]

Still waiting to hear on the "salvage title" question. Is there a paper trail that the boat was a 'total loss' like a car? Will this make it hard to insure or sell in the future?
thanks

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

My boat actually broke from its mooring a couple years ago and went onto some rocks. Fortunately it's a fin keel boat and simply scraped the finish from the keel and didn't touch the glass or rudder. Once the tide got to its full height we pulled it off and took it to the lift for a look. No damage and no insurance involvement.

A friend of mine did damage his boat and required extensive repairs. His yard asked if he wanted the quote to be high enough to write it off. He said no and that it had taken too long to find the right boat. At this point the quote came in comfortably low enough to ensure that the boat was covered. Wonder if there is a dance sequence that is followed but rarely spoken of.

No, No, No! Can't be. Everyone on this forum knows that fin keels will be ripped off if they land on rocks. Are you sure it wasn't an encapsulated full keel?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by zstine

Still waiting to hear on the "salvage title" question. Is there a paper trail that the boat was a 'total loss' like a car? Will this make it hard to insure or sell in the future?
thanks

I think the answer is "it depends". On the boat I got, there was no title or registration trail specifying salvage or etc. IIRC that boat came from Michigan. Also, car damage is often documented with a police investigation of accident etc. A swamped boat likely isn't.

But I imagine some states are more like cars. Cars are insurable too after repair, but usually a title shows as "salvage". Let's face it, it's not always that the car is structurally heavily damaged, just that the repair cost is higher than value and the insurance company is all about cost. Now days it doesn't take much at repair shop rates!
One wonders if you could negotiate with the ins company for a non salvage sale at $1 to avoid any issues.

The car I negotiated for salvage on was a '55 Chevy convertible years ago.

[walkabout08]

As others have noted a total loss is when the cost of repair exceeds the insured value. Typically the insurer will write you a check for that amount and are usually more than happy to sell you back the boat for < $1000. Then you can take the $$$ and get your boat repaired. It's a good time to think about what upgrades you might want done while the repair crews are there.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Interesting thread. Open market value of boats same model & year as mine is apparently around £30,000. Over the years I have spent "stupid" (but not to me) money on the boat upgrading, renovating & replacing & no way could I buy her equivalent today for that. I have discussed this recently with my insurers (Pantaenius) & we agreed an insured value of £60,000 which would give me a better chance of buying something more like her (but still likely to fall short). My premium has gone up maybe 25% but to my mind there is no point in buying insurance which isnt going to do the job if you make a claim?

No different than with an auto.. You can take a 1980's era car, put in a new engine, shocks, etc.. but yet the value doesn't change if its a total loss. You just maintained it. Having an extensive insurance background, most(including homeowners and auto) will tend to under insure) and then blame the company. You insure up to your risk tolerance. If you can't afford that risk level, get more coverage.

[Colin A]

I used to handle yacht claims. They will take the yard estimate, send it thru a technical review (possibly write their own Travelers used to have their own estimators on staff and assume they still do). If the yard was reasonable they will want to total the boat. If not they will either tell you and see if you wanted to have another yard look at it or try to negotiate with them.

If the boat is totaled they will review what they get at salvage auction and move from there. Typically with sailboats salvage recovery values are low (versus say center console power boats which tend to be high) but it can vary alot. (check out some current bids at copart or cooper specialty salavage etc). Per previous comments I never saw the insurance company pay to cut up a boat. I did see some that only got 50-100 bucks but for some reason people almost always buy them. If you decide to keep the boat they will pay you the loss payment less the salvage value (if you keep it) .

The title will vary by state. When I was doing it 10 years ago I don't ever recall seeing a boat with a branded title, but I think there are a couple states that do it. Here in CT last I checked branded titles did not exist on boats.

[basssears]

Another update, since this might be useful to folks in the future.


They did call the boat a Total Constructive Loss, offered to pay me the full amount of agreed value and they take the boat and everything attached to it (we could take our personal gear), or a lower amount and we keep the boat. After talking with the yard (who had obviously bid high for an insurance company) we have come to a "not to exceed" price to do almost all of the repairs that will fit within the reduced amount the insurance company is giving us. Short answer, we're going to try to fix the boat, and we'll probably end up doing some of the more cosmetic (less structural) work ourselves. Won't be a perfect product but it's our boat, nothing logical about boats, and we're attached to it, and would like something positive out of 2020.


As far as insurance going forward, no one will give me a solid answer, but a few things:
1) Obviously, Travelers now knows this boat and won't insure it in the future.
2) It does not appear that most boat titles end up with "salvage" on them in these situations, but that may vary state by state.
3) This is a documented boat, I don't even have a state title, so there's nothing to note there anyway
4) Sounds like we have a decent chance of getting insurance from another carrier by simply showing that the boat is seaworthy and in good shape and worth $XXX and then we'd do an agreed value policy... how she got to be seaworthy and worth $XXX won't necessarily matter to a new insurance carrier.
5) However, both the yard and, in fact, Traveler's (even though they're dropping us) recommended we hire a surveyor to oversee the repair process... we would need an insurance survey regardless (even if we'd just bought the boat), we definitely need one in this case, and so advice was if you're going to hire surveyor for an insurance survey anyway why not hire them at the beginning of the process so they can document that the repairs were done in a professional manner by a reputable shop. This is advice we plan on following.
6) Of course, we shall see... the insurance companies are going to ask if we've ever been involved in a boat that's a total constructive loss, quite possible that will eliminate some possible companies from providing coverage, so it will be some work to find someone who'll cover us. Worst case scenario is we'd be stuck with liability only, not something we want to do but in this scenario we've decided we have to accept that as a possibility or we would have just taken the total payout and abandoned the boat.


-- Bass

[boat driver]

Originally Posted by basssears

Another update, since this might be useful to folks in the future.


They did call the boat a Total Constructive Loss, offered to pay me the full amount of agreed value and they take the boat and everything attached to it (we could take our personal gear), or a lower amount and we keep the boat. After talking with the yard (who had obviously bid high for an insurance company) we have come to a "not to exceed" price to do almost all of the repairs that will fit within the reduced amount the insurance company is giving us. Short answer, we're going to try to fix the boat, and we'll probably end up doing some of the more cosmetic (less structural) work ourselves. Won't be a perfect product but it's our boat, nothing logical about boats, and we're attached to it, and would like something positive out of 2020.


As far as insurance going forward, no one will give me a solid answer, but a few things:
1) Obviously, Travelers now knows this boat and won't insure it in the future.
2) It does not appear that most boat titles end up with "salvage" on them in these situations, but that may vary state by state.
3) This is a documented boat, I don't even have a state title, so there's nothing to note there anyway
4) Sounds like we have a decent chance of getting insurance from another carrier by simply showing that the boat is seaworthy and in good shape and worth $XXX and then we'd do an agreed value policy... how she got to be seaworthy and worth $XXX won't necessarily matter to a new insurance carrier.
5) However, both the yard and, in fact, Traveler's (even though they're dropping us) recommended we hire a surveyor to oversee the repair process... we would need an insurance survey regardless (even if we'd just bought the boat), we definitely need one in this case, and so advice was if you're going to hire surveyor for an insurance survey anyway why not hire them at the beginning of the process so they can document that the repairs were done in a professional manner by a reputable shop. This is advice we plan on following.
6) Of course, we shall see... the insurance companies are going to ask if we've ever been involved in a boat that's a total constructive loss, quite possible that will eliminate some possible companies from providing coverage, so it will be some work to find someone who'll cover us. Worst case scenario is we'd be stuck with liability only, not something we want to do but in this scenario we've decided we have to accept that as a possibility or we would have just taken the total payout and abandoned the boat.


-- Bass

The entire project sounds positive-
Th only part is the first line "Obviously-Travelers will not reinsure...." .
If you follow with a quality rebuild, particularly with "qualified" surveyors and "qualified" yard, Travelers generally will welcome the opportunity to rebid the vessel.
They may or may not exclude a certain repair(reusing existing stretched keel bolts as example, or a reused straightened mast,) but the concept of a "previously totaled" vessel does not exclude most insurance. The insurance is simply a calculated risk of the potential loss again. Now if dubious or difficult customer relations, unqualified repairs, other bad for business exist, then this longer applies.
Insurance companies periodically promote and abandon certain areas of "risks" as an overall business decision, but otherwise what is the difference between "your rebuilt" previously totaled vessel and your purchasing and rebuilding a "used vessel" . Quite often the customer, having been through the first loss and rebuild, is a better risk customer to the insurance company (passion check box) .

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by basssears

6) Of course, we shall see... the insurance companies are going to ask if we've ever been involved in a boat that's a total constructive loss, quite possible that will eliminate some possible companies from providing coverage, so it will be some work to find someone who'll cover us. Worst case scenario is we'd be stuck with liability only, not something we want to do but in this scenario we've decided we have to accept that as a possibility or we would have just taken the total payout and abandoned the boat.


-- Bass

That’s awesome mate! Good luck with the refit.

Re: 6 - I’ve never been asked if a vessel was a total constructive loss... It could be dependent on the individual insurance co?

N

[zstine]

Originally Posted by basssears

Another update, since this might be useful to folks in the future.


They did call the boat a Total Constructive Loss, offered to pay me the full amount of agreed value and they take the boat and everything attached to it (we could take our personal gear), or a lower amount and we keep the boat. After talking with the yard (who had obviously bid high for an insurance company) we have come to a "not to exceed" price to do almost all of the repairs that will fit within the reduced amount the insurance company is giving us. Short answer, we're going to try to fix the boat, and we'll probably end up doing some of the more cosmetic (less structural) work ourselves. Won't be a perfect product but it's our boat, nothing logical about boats, and we're attached to it, and would like something positive out of 2020.


As far as insurance going forward, no one will give me a solid answer, but a few things:
1) Obviously, Travelers now knows this boat and won't insure it in the future.
2) It does not appear that most boat titles end up with "salvage" on them in these situations, but that may vary state by state.
3) This is a documented boat, I don't even have a state title, so there's nothing to note there anyway
4) Sounds like we have a decent chance of getting insurance from another carrier by simply showing that the boat is seaworthy and in good shape and worth $XXX and then we'd do an agreed value policy... how she got to be seaworthy and worth $XXX won't necessarily matter to a new insurance carrier.
5) However, both the yard and, in fact, Traveler's (even though they're dropping us) recommended we hire a surveyor to oversee the repair process... we would need an insurance survey regardless (even if we'd just bought the boat), we definitely need one in this case, and so advice was if you're going to hire surveyor for an insurance survey anyway why not hire them at the beginning of the process so they can document that the repairs were done in a professional manner by a reputable shop. This is advice we plan on following.
6) Of course, we shall see... the insurance companies are going to ask if we've ever been involved in a boat that's a total constructive loss, quite possible that will eliminate some possible companies from providing coverage, so it will be some work to find someone who'll cover us. Worst case scenario is we'd be stuck with liability only, not something we want to do but in this scenario we've decided we have to accept that as a possibility or we would have just taken the total payout and abandoned the boat.


-- Bass

Thanks for the update...
when you say "3) boat is documented, so there's nothing to note." regarding salvage. the USCG doc is the Title (I have no state title on my boat either). I'm not 100% sure you are correct that there's nothing in the USCG Documentation that tracks 'total losses'...? I'm curious b/c I'm interested in buying a hurricane damaged 'total loss' boat to fix and am concerned that I will have issues reselling. Seems crazy that someone can buy a totaled boat, band-aid the damage and sell it without any paper problems! Seems like a 'used car scam' waiting to happen.



6) If the insurance is not paying you full agreed value and you are fixing it at a lesser amount it is NOT A TOTAL LOSS! they are treating it like repairable damage. I would not tell any insurance company you had a total loss because you don't. I would also ask Travelers if they share insurance records with other companies.. I know car ins records are often shared. And insist that the boat not be recorded as a total loss if they aren't paying out full agreed value.


that's just my 2 cents.. BTW, Progressive did not require a survey nor ask if I'd had a total loss. So, you can probably insure through them.


I'm still wondering if anyone has knowledge on the USCG documentation?.. or similarly, if you buy a hurricane total loss in the Bahamas, St. Martin, BVI... any paper trail?