Safety at sea (from other humans)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

can I have a firearm (lethal force to use a generic term for such a monstrous piece of kit) on board and sail around the med, the Caribbean, SE Asia you name it, problem free?

It depends on the nation in question, the nationality of the person bearing arms, the types of firearms, duration of stay, types of visas being used, and so on. There are people who do it lawfully. In some cases customs may require weapons and ammunition to be placed in a sealed locker aboard, or they may require that the weapons be deposited with customs until leaving the country.

It adds paperwork, bureaucracy, and cost. Typically customs will want to see the firearms and check serial numbers and count ammunition with every arrival and departure. Any missing firearms or (in many cases) ammunition upon departure would have to be accounted for. Some sort of advance authorization prior to entry is required in some countries.

Usually firearms and ammunition customarily used for hunting pose fewer compliance difficulties. In some cases the purchase of a hunting license may be required.

[nelly]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The conclusions from the study on actual cases of piracy on bluewater cruisers learns that it was never needed to actually shoot anyone. Not even the coke stoned pirates are crazy enough to attempt the locked companionway knowing a lethal force is ready at the other side. Not one single case.

In this case, why not carry something like a starter pistol? No large risk of someone hurting themselves with it. No chance of killing someone. Pirates wouldn't know what it is. Probably less risk for legal stuff too. Can be a backup noise maker.

[Greatest Lakes]

I think being appropriately prepared, and being the least appetizing target it the safest bet. The book Jedi mentioned is a good resource. If you are restricted by local laws, flare guns, spear guns and a large knife tightly taped to a boathook can aid in discouraging people approaching the hatch.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

Having my earlier post removed for the right reasons I will change tack and ask a question instead: can I have a firearm (lethal force to use a generic term for such a monstrous piece of kit) on board and sail around the med, the Caribbean, SE Asia you name it, problem free? From a European perspective I find the laissez faire around the use of firearms bewildering.

You can when you follow the rules. First you must be qualified for the gun (trained in the use of), then the firearm must be legally acquired, invoice available (called “source document”), then the country must allow you to bring the gun in, not all nations do (example: Mexico).

We carried a shotgun all through the Caribbean. A shotgun is the easiest type of gun legally. You must declare it and preferably have a gun locker aboard. I have always been allowed to keep it aboard, even in countries that officially require the gun to be held by customs until you depart. For one such country I declared it five times, was questioned on it twice and could keep it aboard all five times. I never had the gun locker sealed.

For the ammo you need to keep a log with precise count. Some countries have restrictions on quantity and can even count to check your log.

We now frequently enter the US and to avoid problems we brought the guns we carry to the US CBP office (well, you leave them in your car when you walk in) and they will come out and check the gun and serial number and then give you a paper allowing you to bring it out and in the country without further hassle.

I think they are supposed to check if you are allowed to have the gun and if it was legally acquired but they never did any of that, but I did bring invoices and proof of passing the background checks.

To conclude: if you never had a gun then forget it. It takes a lot of time and effort to become proficient with it and you probably aren’t willing to go through that. Calling it a monstrous tool is a red flag, meaning that I don’t think you should own a gun.

I have had inspections by boarding parties in several countries, incl. a year ago in the Bahamas. As soon as the boarding officer recognizes you are a responsible gun owner the inspection is easy. I always mention ai served in uniform too, which helps greatly as they never even check serial numbers etc.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

In this case, why not carry something like a starter pistol? No large risk of someone hurting themselves with it. No chance of killing someone. Pirates wouldn't know what it is. Probably less risk for legal stuff too. Can be a backup noise maker.

You can not afford to bluff because the pirates may call your bluff. Also, the starter pistol has the same legal status as real guns in most countries.

If you are at risk of hurting yourself with a gun accidentally then you aren’t allowed to own it as far as I’m concerned, even when the local law would allow it. When you are armed, you are held to higher standards than unarmed people. You must bring security, not danger. 9 out of 10 unarmed cruisers that I meet, should not have a gun.

My wife has no background in uniformed service but did extensive gun training just like courses for boat handling, navigation etc. and became a very proficient shooter, often scoring higher than me at the range. Anyone doing recreational shooting at that level before setting sail probably has a gun aboard, as do most who were in uniformed service. For the rest it is safer not to consider it.

[nelly]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You can not afford to bluff because the pirates may call your bluff. Also, the starter pistol has the same legal status as real guns in most countries.

If you are at risk of hurting yourself with a gun accidentally then you aren’t allowed to own it as far as I’m concerned, even when the local law would allow it. When you are armed, you are held to higher standards than unarmed people. You must bring security, not danger. 9 out of 10 unarmed cruisers that I meet, should not have a gun.

My wife has no background in uniformed service but did extensive gun training just like courses for boat handling, navigation etc. and became a very proficient shooter, often scoring higher than me at the range. Anyone doing recreational shooting at that level before setting sail probably has a gun aboard, as do most who were in uniformed service. For the rest it is safer not to consider it.

Surprised about the starter pistol but just shows you how much I know!

I can say that I haven't met a responsible gun owner. Not that they don't exist. Just that all the gun owners I have met have done completely stupid things with their guns.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

Surprised about the starter pistol but just shows you how much I know!

I can say that I haven't met a responsible gun owner. Not that they don't exist. Just that all the gun owners I have met have done completely stupid things with their guns.

I’m pretty sure you talk about people in the US, where gun training is only required for a carry-permit which means that many have no real training at all, which is centered around responsibility and safety.
But law enforcement, military etc. are mostly responsible gun owners. There’s always exceptions and I blame the educational institutions for that.

It bothers me that most people can’t even check and make a gun safe if they would need to. I come from a place and generation where every young man was drafted into the army so every man knew this and could handle a gun responsibly.

Traditionally every yacht was armed.

[Jammer]

Moderator note:

Several additional posts have been deleted because they were unrelated to cruising and sailing. If you choose to participate in this thread, please use particular care to post only information, experiences, and insights that are directly related to cruising and sailing.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by SanPuluei

What is the situation when sailing in 'dangerous areas.'

I feel that in areas when you might get boarded/attacked etc. while out on the sea that you should consider that the people doing so came prepared for YOU to be armed (with real or fake weapons).

In which case most of the bravo "talk" of boaters is really just a way to encourage the robbers to turn into killers. Once you attack them they are going to attack you, and they came prepared!

- this is not really directed to the OP but to the general thought of those that feel they are Rambo on the Water

[nelly]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I feel that in areas when you might get boarded/attacked etc. while out on the sea that you should consider that the people doing so came prepared for YOU to be armed (with real or fake weapons).

In which case most of the bravo "talk" of boaters is really just a way to encourage the robbers to turn into killers. Once you attack them they are going to attack you, and they came prepared!

- this is not really directed to the OP but to the general thought of those that feel they are Rambo on the Water

I agree. I watched a talk by a secret service agent a while back and his message was to always avoid conflict. He said taking out his gun only increased his chance of dying.

In the cruiser world it seems like that is the message too. Don't go where you might expect trouble.

[skipperpete]

Violence against cruising yachts occurs for a range of reasons . 2 male Canadians were abducted from a yacht in a Philippines marina and executed by Islamic terrorists, it was the second such incident in the area, the only apparent reason for these attacks was religion while the attack on a yacht 25 miles from Langkawi that resulted in the death of the owner was carried out by Asian crew members who escaped alleged slavery from a fishing boat. Any region that has poverty or political and/or religious unrest should be strenuously avoided. Carrying firearms legally on a cruising yacht raises too many problems with clear in/clear out procedures, secure storage aboard and of course, the ever present problem of what happens if you shoot and kill an innocent person who may be only approaching you at sea for cigarettes, food or help.

[deblen]

Some may believe it is their right to go anywhere on the planet.
It isn't.

When you leave your home country,your rights stay behind & you come under the laws,or lack of laws,in your current position.
That is the way the world is & has been-so far.

[myketch42]

I have always carried a shot gun . I have never reported it except to the US Coast Guard . Ther are many ways to hide it aboard , And as of yet ( alas only 17 countries ) I have never had a vigorous enough inspection to even worry . There are countries that the risk reward equation too weighted toward the risk for me to attempt entry though . with all that I have been boarded by thieves arriving in boats twice , once off DOminica and once Colombia , In both instances I was surprised and unable to react in time for a weapon to be of use . Once I thought my ticket was up and I kept my head and escaped overboard ( in hindsight a great life experience for me ) . I still have a buried shot gun , but a homemade boarding pike always on a rack by the companion way gives me the most sense that I wont be an innocent victim .

[dannc]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

I agree. I watched a talk by a secret service agent a while back and his message was to always avoid conflict. He said taking out his gun only increased his chance of dying.

In the cruiser world it seems like that is the message too. Don't go where you might expect trouble.

The secret service agent is correct about avoiding trouble. That is the best thing to do. There are many sources of information for cruisers to check the safety of cruising areas, which should be read, and taken into account.

He is wrong that drawing his weapon increased his chance of dying. If he had ever been in a life threatening, having his weapon in a ready position decreases reaction time and increases one's chance of survival. Having one's service weapon in a ready position, in life threatening situations, is basic officer survival tactics. To do other wise is a good way to die, or worse.

Again, avoiding trouble is the best tactic for most people, including cruisers.

[s/v Jedi]

Any law enforcement officer, incl. secret service, turned into blue water cruiser will avoid known areas of trouble, but they will also always be armed in case trouble comes to them.

They do not tell that drawing their gun increases chances to die. They will tell -you- that -your- chances to die will increase when you draw a gun before it is needed. Training is crucial and training reduces the chance to die violently.

Another remark: accidentally shooting innocent fishermen who come by asking for a smoke. If you run the risk of doing that, you should not be armed.
That said, consider that they are not as innocent as it sounds in these comments. They come to you to get stuff from you. If they are young and strong, you must understand that many are opportunistic when they think you are weak and they can get away with pressuring you to give them more stuff.
I have never heard of any cruiser shooting an innocent fisherman who comes asking for a cigarette, so this is not a valid argument anyway and always comes from those who are not allowed to arm themselves.

Avoid trouble. Sometimes easier said than done. Not many avoid St Lucia, St Vincent and other popular places where cruisers die violent deaths and/or get robbed from everything. When you cruise the world, you better think about security and make plans about how to act. Every professional mariner does this and before they approach trouble areas (West Africa or southern approach to Suez Canal good examples), they actually practice this plan and prepare the ship with anti boarding measures. Those who hire security personnel never get boarded, which should be a good hint.

“Declaring a gun is too much trouble and it will get you in trouble.” No, it isn’t and no, it won’t. If you are not willing to keep a gun log in your logbook then you shouldn’t own them. If you can’t be bothered declaring guns then you shouldn’t own them. If you have no means for securely storing them then you shouldn’t own them.
We have sailed Jedi to more than 20 countries in the past 20 years, entering most of them multiple times and always declaring what we have. It never took more than a couple of minutes extra and it never caused us any trouble. Customs officers deal with that every day and will not be “unpleasantly surprised” by it. I have even had a female officer in the Bahamas writing down the serial numbers on the form for me while I filled out another form.
What gets you in trouble is when you hesitate to declare, don’t know serial numbers, have no paperwork, don’t have an ammo count, don’t give straight answers etc. I have seen it happen right in front of me while waiting my turn.

That doesn’t mean you can do this everywhere. Just like checking if you need a visa, you also need to check gun regulations for every country you visit. Some don’t allow it, period (example: Mexico) while others have restrictions (example: US requires guns to have been initially taken out of the US) and you need to deal with that.
For a place like Mexico you could hide the guns and hope for the best. What to do when they bring a dog aboard that is trained to find them? Not a good plan imho and we simply don’t do that. Better plan would be to select an approach to Mexica that takes you along some cays or reefs where you can anchor and leave the gun in a vacuum sealed sleeve hidden on the seabed for later retrieval.
In the case of the US, if you are allowed to have a gun there (check it), you can go to customs and ask for a certificate that allows you to bring it back into the country. Tricky on how you get it in the first place… we simply bought them in the US but most visiting cruisers are not allowed to buy guns (you must at minimum own property and pay tax). It may be the case that you will not be allowed to bring the gun in so that makes it the same case as Mexico.

So does it get you into trouble to bring a gun in and report it, knowing it isn’t allowed? I’ve seen the US confiscate it for destruction and Mexico arrest the cruiser and put them in jail.

Same risk with visa. I have seen the US arrest and deport cruisers that tried to enter without a visa.

“You aren’t allowed to travel wherever you want”. Please give an example of where I’m not allowed to travel?

Looking back at the 20 years we have been cruising in/around the Caribbean, we did have multiple incidents, namely in Dominican Republic, St Lucia, Trinidad, Grenada, Venezuela and Panama. We avoided Nicaragua and Honduras. I only took the gun out once and that was in Venezuela and it was effective while most boats leaving at the time were boarded, often very violently. A friend was boarded twice in one hour… that’s how bad some areas are… simply sailing from Trinidad to Grenada exposes you to Venezuelan pirates so not going to Venezuela doesn’t mean you are safe.

What I am trying to say is true for many safety and security items you need to carry. Did you ever practice with a fire extinguisher? Did you do a first aid course, did you make an abandon ship plan and practice that? What is the use of (for example) carrying a tourniquet when you don’t know how to use it? It may do more harm than good in that case and it used to be not allowed for use by civilians in Holland for a long time, and only the military first aid course included it. You think we carry one? You bet, multiple and we know how to use them.

Blue water cruising means you will be on your own, away from emergency services and you will have to take care of things yourself. If you can’t deal with that, then do coastal cruising in range of cellphone and dial 911 when in trouble. It’s as simple as that.