Sailboat Age Discrimination - West Coast Ca.

[Tellie]

This is the world we live in and have created.



1) The Marina's insurance may demand it
2) What marina wants to take the chance of a 30+ year old boat that has been re-wired ten times by various DIY owners docked next to a mega yacht professionally maintained.
3) For every well maintained 30+ year old boat, any marina can point to a dozen 30+ year old boats that are not.
4) The liability most marinas are worried about is not the individual boat but the other boats around it who expect the Marina to protect them from.

5) Bad apples. After a few of them, and there are many, most marina's are going to cry Uncle and move on to more profitable endeavors.

[john61ct]

And try fighting for "the right" to use an older boat as opposed to newer ones, good luck with that.

If anything the industry would be happy to force us to scrap more of "the immortals".

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Blaine

You have to understand that you are not dealing with dockmasters who have a boating background anymore -- you are dealing with bureaucrats who are just following the script they've been given.

That's the defense and explanation they will use too. It's getting so every corporation is fronted by a brick wall of ignorance. It's done that way by design I believe.

[Kenomac]

Judging by the past two pages of responses, there are plenty of “bad apples” participating on this forum as well. So I guess it should come as no surprise that the marinas and public facilities are taking a defensive posture when it comes to transient boats.

Lying, forgery, no insurance etc....

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

It's getting so every corporation is fronted by a brick wall of ignorance. It's done that way by design I believe.

Maximizing their profits is their one and only job in Amerika.

Which means

catering to the preferences of recession-proof super-rich customers as much as possible

lowering costs by basing decisions on rules rather than employing smart humans and giving them risky discretionary powers

eliminating all sources of potential liability

etc etc

I make sure my kids understand from a very young age, that life isn't fair, would never want them to grow up with unrealistic expectations.

[Elzaar]

Just seems odd to me, but I'm guessing $$$ is at the bottom of it. My experience (both responding to boating mishaps and having a 1986 boat) is there is little connection between boat age and condition and responsibility to safely tie off, etc.

I also would caution against falsifying a document to show insurance where there isn't any. IIRC
Insurance is a legal document and making a copy of it doesnt change that. Not my area of expertise, but you may be tip-toeing along the edges of Fraud - at a felony level if there is enough damage. Either way, I believe the term is something like "actionable position."

I AM curious about a few things though. If you falsified the YEAR of your boat on copies I doubt you have violated anything anywhere as you still have insurance. Police, Customs. Etc., won't accept a copy. I only ruminate over this because the entire concept is offensive to me - but if you then show up to the transient/guest dock you are challenging the manager to 1. Actually notice 2. Care 3. Risk now having the spot go unrented. Sure, you should have a back up plan, but then if you really want to turn the legal system to your advantage, tell them you feel unsafe if you have to leave because you are exhausted. THEY are likely now the ones in an "actionable position." 😁

Would I really do it? Probably not, but I would LIKE to. This whole thing is at the very least institutional classism. Intentionally or not, they are discriminating based on the likely wealth of an unseen person and making judgements of that person based on how old their boat is. That is total BS.

[LagoonJim]

This is an ignorant trend here on the west coast. I find most brokers and marina 'managers', especially younger ones, call 5-10 year old boats 'old'. They even call my 2012 Lagoon 500 'old'.

I liked gdecon's idea. On my 'old' S2 I was quick to tell non-boaters she was fully refit in 2005. Using Time Since Major Refit to answer 'Year' on the application could work too, like TSOH for aircraft engines. Then it's up to the girl in the marina office to argue against the vessels condition based age.

Aircraft condition is broadly determined by hours of operation. Pilots would not call an otherwise properly maintained 1975 Skyhawk with 1400 hours on the airframe 'old'. A 1980 737 with 30,000 cycles would be considered mid-time. How many Catalina 38s have been to Catalina 30,000 times??

Speaking of that, I've always wondered why boat owners aren't at least expected to keep maintenance logs for sale purposes. No broker ever even mentions it. In aviation it's generally accepted that 50% of the sale price of an aircraft is lost if the log books are not up to date and complete.

Maybe if we had that sort of professionalism in boating, the perception wouldn't persist. Then again, maybe the market would just collapse because so few owners would be capable of meeting the standard.

[Elzaar]

My boat passed a survey that missed horrendously dangerous wiring.

A $10,000 re-wire job done to ABYC standards by a top marine wiring company in town fixed that when it was discovered because I was having the inverter upgraded

Survey missed a thru hull with no backing plate slowly leaking. I replaced or eliminated all thru hulls last year (which is when I caught it) working weekends with a boat guy with more than 10 years experience. His weekday job was laying carbon fiberglass on one of the latest boat designs for a major designer and boat builder.

My insurance required all new fire extinguishers, wired CO2 detectors, life jackets, etc three years ago and the boat got all of them (and replacing the ten year old extinguishers that were there).

Does anyone seriously think that ten year old boat down the dock hasnt had some owner fixes and add ons to the wiring? That they arent still sporting the same emergency equipment they were told they had to buy the first year they bought the boat?

If the standard was no more than three years old I might see it, but the marine environment and reality of many humans is that using time to presume good condition is just silly. Most of us would see a ten year old car as a risky purchase. But a 30 year old car is pretty easy to judge - it's either obviously a wreck or if it's still on the road it's because some owner has lovingly cared for it or restored it.

How much someone paid (or owes) on a boat has nothing to do with demonstrating seaworthiness, personality traits, or operating skill. I had a friend killed trying to secure a old, crappy, poorly secured boat. I have also seen some incredibly well maintained old boats you could have eaten food off of the bilge being maintained by a full time crew.

I'm not saying the marina doesnt have a legitimate right to reduce their liability, protect other boats, avoid having wrecks tied to their dock until they can go through the legal circus of getting them removed, etc. I can even see why they may want what I personally see as a questionable bill of health in the form of a recent survey and certainly understand them retaining the right to examine a vessel and say she is generally unsafe and refuse moorage. I am only saying it is unreasonable and misguided to use age of boat as an absolute screening criteria.

The USS Nimitz was commissioned in 1975. Care to go tell the Navy she can't park someplace? ��

[Dave9111]

First, I would avoid a place that has such ridiculous requirements...



But, if you really want to stay there, I would offer "Alternative Facts" and change some dates. Make the claim that you are also a "stable genius" and you should be good to go!



Dave

[goguygo]

I had a '79 Catalina 27 berthed at Port Royal until I sold her 4 years ago. When I purchased the boat in 2008, the requirements appear to be the same as now.
Those were during the years of economic downturn and there were empty slips in the marina- I don't think there was a waiting list back then, but they were fairly strict with their marina rules.
I don't know if the same manager is still there, but Marion was tough as nails!

[boat driver]

I have a number of older vessels- and therefore have refrained from email applications- they seem to bring the wary out of the marinas.
I had a similar refusal about three years ago in Destin , Fl- the marina said the vessel was to old and wood construction.
On arrival we anchored out in the harbor. within 30 minutes admirers began circulating including a party launch from the marina asking twenty questions about my boat. Last laugh was the marina manager touring with the town fathers discovering (and I showed him the email response from marina) his own shortsighted rules. Although I doubt I will be back in the area for a number of years, I have a free transient dock coupon book for the future. I think the town fathers were a bit embarrassed for not doing better due diligence.
But seriously, the profiling of vessels is due to the number of freeloaders and other derelict vessels that marinas get stuck with- and personally I can not blame them. Be assured, its not your fault.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Elzaar

This whole thing is at the very least institutional classism. Intentionally or not, they are discriminating based on the likely wealth of an unseen person and making judgements of that person based on how old their boat is. That is total BS.

OMG, being perceived as "poor" (not wealthy) is **absolutely 100%** OK as the basis for discrimination in America, in fact the very business model for huge sectors of our economy. Not to mention so many laws.

The fact that you haven't absorbed that into your pores is in itself a marker of extreme privilege.

Yes, of course it is wrong, but. . .

[Elzaar]

John, PM sent.

Please dont make assumptions about people whom you know nothing about.

[Dauntlessny]

Originally Posted by mlydon

Sounds pretty strange to me. While I’ve only taken moorings, not slips, here on the east coast, they’ve only asked for boat name and length. Is insurance information usually requested at slips? Is it a west coast thing, or everywhere?

Matt

Yes. California is ridiculous.
On the east coast I never had to actually show my insurance policy.
Here in California, i've had to show it even for an overnight stop.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by SV Mia Noi

I sail a 1978 Catalina 22 which I fully overhauled, rebuilt and refitted new hardware in 2015.

I tried to book a guest slip at Port Royal Marina in King Harbor (Redondo Beach Ca.) for the Memorial Day Weekend. I emailed my insurance details, registration and a photo of my Catalina 22 to the Port Royal Marina Office Manager.

The Manager replied quote:
"Good Morning,

I am sorry but we cannot rent you due to the year of your vessel. We only rent guest slips to vessels that are 1990 or newer."

Anyone else had this happen to them? They are providing a service but discriminating against age. Isn't that illegal? Or does it only apply to a living thing?

I can only assume they want to keep their marina gentrified with newer boats or keep financially strapped liveaboards from setting down roots.

If it's an issue with Port Royal Marina's insurance - that only covers boats newer than 1990, then say that. Don't discriminate against older boats.

I'm proud of my small boat. Small boats make good sailors and I plan to keep on sailing her until I can afford a bigger one, or the wife lets my sell the house so we can go Cruising!

Why bother with this clowns? Go sailing and leave this corporate nonsense to the bean counters.