Sailing on jib alone

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Welti

I did already look into some lazy jacks. You can get a kit for around $400 or so. It's just that I also read about some people's issues with sails snagging
or otherwise being interfered with by the lazy jacks. I'm sure it could be figured out, and I may actually DO that.

This is a Cal 2-25? IMHO Lazyjacks are more trouble than they are worth on a boat that small. It should be quite easy for a single person to douse the main and flake it on a boat that size. It should well under one minute (maybe 20 seconds) to get the main down, and 2 minutes or so to flake. Maybe all that is needed is practice?

I have a 38' sailboat without lazyjacks, and that is about how long it takes me singlehanded. I prefer to let the sail fall to the deck, and only fold the luff between slides as it comes down. Then, I flake it from the aft of the boom, grabbing the first fold from the deck, lifting it to the boom, then the second fold. When I get to a fold with a batten, I know the batten belongs centered on the boom, I even out the folds and attach a sail tie. Then continue working to the next batten.

In tight quarters with lots to pay attention to, I will leave the sail on the deck until I am tied up. If I have room, I will leave the jib up and sail on the jib while flaking the main.

Lazyjacks interfere with raising the sail on many boats, and the solution is to move them forward prior to raising the sail, and back into position before lowering. That just adds more work.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Welti

Ho Don, do you mean dousing the main before I get into harbor?
Yes, I have roller furling on my jib.

I was out yesterday and with both sails up. I found that as for tying it off (as I circle around in the area over by the boat ramp) , I used to start at the rear and go forward while dropping the halyard a bit at a time, using 3 or 4 ties in all. But maybe that is too time consuming, so this time I just pretty much dropped it all at once and put one tie at the front of the boom. Didn't look to pretty but worked to get into the slip and fix it up.

Yeah I just let mine fall completely, roll it into a bundle and one tie on it to hold it together till
I am in the slip. It’s fast, works fine and, most importantly, looks beautiful.
And yeah, sounds like you got it figured out and there is a lot of room by the ramp. I thought you were doing this farther in. I was also thinking you were dousing the main before entering the harbor.
Any plans to go to the islands? If so I’ll look for you!

[Welti]

I pretty much agree there, that is why I have not bought the lazy jacks. I like your method and will try it. I also did think of simply having a short bungee cord which attaches to somewhere around the gooseneck and I could simply loop it around the mainsail after dropping, just to keep the sail off the deck and give me visibility until I can flake it in the slip.

Originally Posted by wholybee

This is a Cal 2-25? IMHO Lazyjacks are more trouble than they are worth on a boat that small. It should be quite easy for a single person to douse the main and flake it on a boat that size. It should well under one minute (maybe 20 seconds) to get the main down, and 2 minutes or so to flake. Maybe all that is needed is practice?

I have a 38' sailboat without lazyjacks, and that is about how long it takes me singlehanded. I prefer to let the sail fall to the deck, and only fold the luff between slides as it comes down. Then, I flake it from the aft of the boom, grabbing the first fold from the deck, lifting it to the boom, then the second fold. When I get to a fold with a batten, I know the batten belongs centered on the boom, I even out the folds and attach a sail tie. Then continue working to the next batten.

In tight quarters with lots to pay attention to, I will leave the sail on the deck until I am tied up. If I have room, I will leave the jib up and sail on the jib while flaking the main.

Lazyjacks interfere with raising the sail on many boats, and the solution is to move them forward prior to raising the sail, and back into position before lowering. That just adds more work.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

SailingHarmonie,

I'm not looking to argue, just would like clarification. My understanding of sail balance is contrary to this. It seems that having a headsail alone would push the bow downwind, resulting in lee helm. I don't get how the wind picking up would reverse that and result in weather helm. Even with some heel, I can't picture how that works.

I don't dispute this. but if you can explain how that would work I might learn something.

Thanks,

BSer

Sure... there are multiple things that effect the balance of a boat. Most sailing texts and especially Youtube videos oversimplify the issue a LOT.

The simple idea presented in most sailing texts is that it is area of canvas in front of the boat compared to area further back. This is certainly true, in the simplest case of the boat sailing unheeled and with the wind hitting straight on from the beam. The further you get from those conditions, the more other factors come into play. The following is still greatly simplified, but it should get you started on the track of realizing that other factors matter as well as where sail area is deployed.

Let's just look at heeling for a second. A boat can have lee helm when vertical, and weather helm when heeled--with exactly the same sailplan. Imagine looking down on the boat from above. Greatly simplfying, the water is pushing straight back on the bow. At the same time the sails are pushing forward at some place (very) roughly halfway up the mast. As the boat heels, the forward force generated by the sails moves off to the side, and the water resistance keeps pushing straight back. This generates a turning force into the wind that can be very large, especially on a tender boat with a high aspect rig. It is independent of the sail plan or anything else. This it the primary reason that a monohull tends to round up in a strong gust, and catamarans do not to anywhere near the same extent.

I sail a ketch with a large genoa. With just the genoa and main close hauled in light winds, it has slight lee helm that requires the mizzen to balance, just as you might expect. Once the wind picks up, and the boat starts to heel a bit, the balance becomes neutral without the mizzen, and eventually goes to weather once heeling angle gets to 7 or 8 degrees.

On a boat that is hit by a gust, and suddenly rounding up, easing the main does two things. It moves the center of effort forward, and reduces the heel. Both of these things act to reduce weather helm. BUT...If the headsail is big enough to continue to induce significant heeling, the heel itself can cause enough weather helm that the change in center of effort doesn't stop the round up.

[Bullshooter]

Hey thanks for those explanations about weather helm when heeling. I had to sit and think about them for a minute and got to the "aha" moment.

I have not done the jib-only thing except going downwind, and this discussion got me thinking. If the OP does not mind further thread drift, do you think that sailing downwind, jib only places too much stress on the rigging of say, a 42 foot cat? Lets say in less than 20 knots wind.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

thomm,

What you say is right--sometimes--and wrong--sometimes. It MIGHT be right always on YOUR boat, but it is not always right for all boats and all sails in all conditions.

By way of example, I taught sailing for many years. In some of our advanced classes we practiced sailing J-24's with headsails only. In light winds, a J-24 under genoa alone generates huge leehelm, just as you describe. Right up to the point of being totally unable to tack without REALLY good timing.

But let the wind pick up a bit and the boat start to heel, the exact same boat and sail now generates significant weather helm, and can generate a LOT of it.

I watched one boat racing upwind with full genoa up and in a gust they started to round up into the boat next to them. The skipper blew the mainsheet, just as he should, but the boat continued to round up into a collision.

If you were always right in your description of jib only sailing, what I just described could not happen.

The problem is that since the Skipper was late dealing with the gust of wind he most likely over steered after blowing the main which appears to have confused you.

It wasn't the jib; it was the Skipper.

It's best if you simply understand the basics which again are:

The main causes the boat to head up to windward.

The jib causes the boat to head off.

That's all there is too it no matter how many words are written to disagree.

You will learn maybe with a bit more experience especially if you sail engineless a bit

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

Hey thanks for those explanations about weather helm when heeling. I had to sit and think about them for a minute and got to the "aha" moment.

I have not done the jib-only thing except going downwind, and this discussion got me thinking. If the OP does not mind further thread drift, do you think that sailing downwind, jib only places too much stress on the rigging of say, a 42 foot cat? Lets say in less than 20 knots wind.

It's amazing how folks can confuse one simple thing about sailing.

Of course, jib only downwind doesn't overstress a cat or a monohull. Think about it.

It fact it makes it easier on the boat and the rudder which is why my autopilot could handle this 35 mile downwind sail with jib only. Winds gusting to 27 knots or so.

Had I had the main up it would have been a different story because the boat would have been trying to round up, would have overpowered the autopilot, and I would have had to steer.

But I guess I should understand some folks just will not get it. The Titan Sub was also built by some pretty smart people but.......

Photo is a drawing by Steven Callahan running before the wind in the Trades

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agtdrmAqojs

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's amazing how folks can confuse one simple thing about sailing.

Of course, jib only downwind doesn't overstress a cat or a monohull. Think about it.

You misunderstand what I meant. There is no backstay on these cats, and the shrouds are not even that far aft of the mast, so think of the forces on the rigging in that configuration. Yes the mast is subject to a lot of force when both sails are up, but it was just a question related to earlier posts.

[TrentePieds]

Well, uhm... ehr... if you, while wearing main and jib or wearing a 150% genny only, heel a fat beamed, low deadrise boat far enuff, say a Catalina 27, she WILL gripe, i.e aggressively bring her head to weather, and that is precisely because the centres then shift in a really nasty fashion. The Centre of Effort goes so far "outboard" (envisage this in plan view) that a "cranking force" is set up that wrenches the head of the boat to weather while the Centre of Flotation about which the boat yaws in response to that force has only shifted a little. Furthermore, the boat will pull her rudder out, sometimes completely, causing the Centre of Lateral Resistance to move forward. The question of "lead" becomes entirely moot, since no-one can really know where the centres are as they all shift about.

I'm back on my hobby horse that there are few boats that aren't at their happiest if you keep their heel to between ten and fifteen degrees :-)

TrentePieds

[Welti]

Yes, I would like to go out there to CI this summer. Is there a particular spot you recommend there, for NOOBS?

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah I just let mine fall completely, roll it into a bundle and one tie on it to hold it together till
I am in the slip. It’s fast, works fine and, most importantly, looks beautiful.
And yeah, sounds like you got it figured out and there is a lot of room by the ramp. I thought you were doing this farther in. I was also thinking you were dousing the main before entering the harbor.
Any plans to go to the islands? If so I’ll look for you!

[Welti]

Is this in addition to forces in the same direction generated by differing hull profile in the water when heeling? I mean just the hull itself.

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Let's just look at heeling for a second. A boat can have lee helm when vertical, and weather helm when heeled--with exactly the same sailplan. Imagine looking down on the boat from above. Greatly simplfying, the water is pushing straight back on the bow. At the same time the sails are pushing forward at some place (very) roughly halfway up the mast. As the boat heels, the forward force generated by the sails moves off to the side, and the water resistance keeps pushing straight back. This generates a turning force into the wind that can be very large, especially on a tender boat with a high aspect rig. It is independent of the sail plan or anything else. This it the primary reason that a monohull tends to round up in a strong gust, and catamarans do not to anywhere near the same extent.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The problem is that since the Skipper was late dealing with the gust of wind he most likely over steered after blowing the main which appears to have confused you.

It wasn't the jib; it was the Skipper.

It's best if you simply understand the basics which again are:

The main causes the boat to head up to windward.

The jib causes the boat to head off.

That's all there is too it no matter how many words are written to disagree.

You will learn maybe with a bit more experience especially if you sail engineless a bit

No, there actually is more to it and it's not as simple as you make it out to be. It has been explained above several times, IF were to pay attention to it. Perhaps you should read through the thread again looking at those posts. You may also want to note this post first, as it is particularly applicable to you:

Originally Posted by wholybee

Most peoples understanding is in 2 dimensions. Like looking at a sailplan drawing, where the designer has marked the the center of lateral resistance of the boat, and the center of effort of the sails. What you need to understand is that these are dynamic, depending on the wind direction and sail trim.

Post #64 by SailingHarmonie is a good one (it's mostly right), but there are others. Try to keep an open mind. It's a 3-dimensional, 6-degree of freedom problem.


Let me ask you this...you've heard of a spinnaker, right? Maybe even used one. Why do boats round up with spinnakers? I mean, that's a bigger headsail so helps the boat to head off even more, right?

[Jim Cate]

Let me ask you this...you've heard of a spinnaker, right? Maybe even used one. Why do boats round up with spinnakers? I mean, that's a bigger headsail so helps the boat to head off even more, right?

Good one LJ!

Jim

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The main causes the boat to head up to windward.

The jib causes the boat to head off.

That's all there is too it no matter how many words are written to disagree.

The internet is a confusing place: there are so many different truths out there! Sign of the times...

So I would like to come back with my personal truth: Any monohull (not catamaran, monohull) will luff up on the jib alone IF (I repeat: IF) heeled over sufficiently. My X does it and so did my 420 many years ago when hit by a violent gust and the crew in the trapeze did not uncleat the jib. Even if main was completely depowered.

At sailing school I taught sailing without a rudder which is a good skill to have, not only for when you might find yourself rudderless, but also to understand the dynamics of sailing and improve boat speed. If you want to steer the boat on sails alone the prerequisite is keeping the boat upright. If in addition you want to use the heel of the boat then, once the boat is well trimmed, heeling it to windward will cause it to bear away and heeling it to leeward will cause it to luff up. The Laser can be sailed without a rudder (it is tricky, but possible) by mainly controlling the heel, it having only one sail so center of effort cannot be easily moved fore and aft.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So, as long as I am pontificating, let me voice an opinion on when not to sail with just the jib (or genoa).

Quite often I see people out on the bay with a genoa rolled out and no mainsail. And they are just lazing along at 3 knots going nowhere. Then, when their "sailing" day is over, they roll up the jib and motor home and tell us later what a wonderful day they had sailing.

Well, to me, that's not sailing. If that is what they want to do, OK, fine, but it is not sailing.

I always try to have the right amount of sail up so that the boat goes at its best. And often that means a little more work. Obviously putting up the mainsail is more work than rolling out a jib. But I don't avoid doing the right thing because it is too much work. Sailing is a little work. It always has been. If you don't want to do a little work, stay home and watch TV, or get a powerboat.

If you have a sailboat, sail it, and the work of sailing it well will do you good.

This weekend's sail was down the coast to the Transpac start with a crew of 6 geriatrics and newbies. The overriding goal was not to sail the boat at is best, but to complete the trip in without breaking anything. We could have gone faster with a full main and spinnaker, but the crew all had a great time.