Sailing upwind

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well... I don’t think anyone has suggested that you not make your life as full and rewarding as you can. If you choose a boat like the Catalina or Ranger, both fun little boats, they sail well because they are light with fin keels. They will bounce around more and that gets a bit tiring after a day or so. Heck even the heavier little boats still bounce around a lot. Your body is always instinctively repeatedly responding to or compensating for the motion. It’s probably a good way to lose weight, ‘cause you probably won’t be having any big meals too. My friends have a Catalina 27 and it performs well, but its particular motion makes me a bit queasy in choppy seas. There is a Columbia 38 near me, old school, skinny and deep, and I hear it is really comfortable going upwind and points pretty well considering it’s vintage. I haven’t had the pleasure of feeling it firsthand yet.
When you feel ready, the California coast offers some beautiful opportunities for lots of spirited upwind sailing once north of Pt. Conception.

I'm currently torn between something longer than 40' and something easier/cheaper to feed and keep.

I'm 6 1/2 feet tall. At a minimum I need more headroom for cooking and a bunk that's long enough to sleep on than most pocket cruisers have. Of course, one end of a hammock strung from the ceiling up by the the mast with the other end going out the companionway hatch and tied to the backstay would be "long enough", but where's the fun in that when the mosquitos come calling or the fog rolls in?

There are poptops from some manufacturers but even those aren't really tall enough or long enough without the backstay hammock technique.

Were I still able-bodied I'd be looking at that hurricane damaged Sovereign 54 down in Sint Maartin. A couple of years spent ripping out and redo-ing the interior and fixing the hull damage could get me a fantastic boat that I could tailor to fit me and my needs. I can afford it. If I really wanted to spend that much time/energy/cash and could manage to get my body to cooperate it'd be a great deal for me.

That Ranger looks like it could be a lot of fun though. The tumblehome makes it look a little bulbous but it still looks like it'd be fun to sail no matter which way the wind was blowing. Plus cheap!

And, with the PHRF rating of 180, it's probably fairly fast for what it is.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

...Were I still able-bodied I'd be looking at that hurricane damaged Sovereign 54 down in Sint Maartin. A couple of years spent ripping out and redo-ing the interior and fixing the hull damage could get me a fantastic boat that I could tailor to fit me and my needs. I can afford it. If I really wanted to spend that much time/energy/cash and could manage to get my body to cooperate it'd be a great deal for me...

Maybe you don't want to, or are not able to, take on a project but if you were there are other possibilites.

For example I know you could find a perfectly good condtion, if sparse, 40-45ft 1980's IOR race boat for under $50,000. (I've seen them for under $20,000 sail away). with sails, winches motor, very basic interior, and fantastic performance.

Have the tiny deckhouse cut off and build (or have built) a bigger, taller deck house with windows and you would have your headroom. Add what inerior you want and what cruising luxuries you want and it isn't all that much work.

A boat like that will be an easy cruising boat to operate, it will go fast with very small sails, and handle any conditions, and be safe, and upwind, it will be very rarely beaten by any boat.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Maybe you don't want to, or are not able to, take on a project but if you were there are other possibilites.

For example I know you could find a perfectly good condtion, if sparse, 40-45ft 1980's IOR race boat for under $50,000. (I've seen them for under $20,000 sail away). with sails, winches motor, very basic interior, and fantastic performance.

Have the tiny deckhouse cut off and build (or have built) a bigger, taller deck house with windows and you would have your headroom. Add what inerior you want and what cruising luxuries you want and it isn't all that much work.

A boat like that will be an easy cruising boat to operate, it will go fast with very small sails, and handle any conditions, and be safe, and upwind, it will be very rarely beaten by any boat.

Having spent the last hour looking at boat porn in the form of C&C 110's and 115's, and others like the C&C 40 and 41's, my wallet hates you.

Seriously, the 40/41's tick nearly all my boxes. Lines, performance, looks, it's all there. And there's almost enough standing headroom. I think these used aluminum drop-in stringers for the sole. If so, I could drop in smaller sized stringers to lower the sole and gain the inch I'd need without changing the exterior looks or windage.

I think I said it already, but my wallet hates you. Maybe in a year or so after I've gotten more time and experience I'll go looking instead of dreaming. At that point my wallet will REALLY hate you.

[dougweibel]

We had a fun day sailing upwind the other day, but that seems to be the exception by far as cruisers; as numerous others have mentioned taking your home and slamming it to windward is just no fun. However, we had a beautiful run down the leeward side of the central Exumas the other day. 25-30 kts apparent at 40-45 degrees making 8.5 kts. We were carrying appropriate sail for a while and making well over 10, but it wasn't relaxing for us. 8.5 on third reefs was comfortable. The key was we were on the lee side, so the wave height was less than a half meter.

Had we needed to be on the windward side in Exuma Sound, well that would have been unpleasant.

It was nice to be reminded that upwind can be fun sometimes.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Truth.

The difference is that when I say it, I'm wanting to sound more like Sir Edmond Hillary than Jackie Gleason.

Or Einstein instead of Gallagher.

Truth..
Gotta stop with the.. 'I'm handicapped' to do that..

[thomm225]

There is a real art to upwind sailing though that you can probably only really learn by racing.......especially one design.

Think about having 16-30 boats exactly like yours starting an upwind leg at the same time in a race.

The boat has to be setup right, mast rake, batten selection, mast prebend, traveler position, main and jib sheeting, sail selection and age, and probably most important the driver/skipper.

And you also have to be sailing to the correct side of the race course and not in an adverse current

Also, the best skippers can keep the boat on the same heel through every gust that they encounter because they are looking ahead at the wind on the water and adjusting as in hits the boat and a little before.

When you are buoy racing and after an hour's long race with several windward / leeward legs you come in 3rd or 4th behind the leader it makes you think especially if you are only 10-30 seconds behind.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The boat has to be setup right, mast rake, batten selection, mast prebend, traveler position, main and jib sheeting, sail selection and age, and probably most important the driver/skipper.

And you also have to be sailing to the correct side of the race course and not in an adverse current

Also, the best skippers can keep the boat on the same heel through every gust that they encounter because they are looking ahead at the wind on the water and adjusting as in hits the boat and a little before.

We're on a cruisers forum talking about why cruisers on cruisiing boats are reluctant to sail long passages upwind.
None of the above is in any way relevant to the topic.

[Training Wheels]

But, but, but, he used to race beach cats..... [emoji23][emoji23][emoji28]

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

But, but, but, he used to race beach cats..... [emoji23][emoji23][emoji28]

Did he? I'd never have guessed

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Having spent the last hour looking at boat porn in the form of C&C 110's and 115's, and others like the C&C 40 and 41's, my wallet hates you.

Seriously, the 40/41's tick nearly all my boxes. Lines, performance, looks, it's all there. And there's almost enough standing headroom. I think these used aluminum drop-in stringers for the sole. If so, I could drop in smaller sized stringers to lower the sole and gain the inch I'd need without changing the exterior looks or windage.

I think I said it already, but my wallet hates you. Maybe in a year or so after I've gotten more time and experience I'll go looking instead of dreaming. At that point my wallet will REALLY hate you.

Rob, Not to belabor the point but a C&C 40/41 is not an old IOR raceboat. They are production racer cruisers with full interiors and are each a finished product. As such they will command more money (and require less work).

My suggestion was for a serious old race boat. A stripped out boat with 22 sails or such but no stove or toilet. That is where you'll find the bargains.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by StuM

We're on a cruisers forum talking about why cruisers on cruisiing boats are reluctant to sail long passages upwind.
None of the above is in any way relevant to the topic.

I'd say knowing how to sail the boat well even helps a cruising sailor even though most anyone can sort of get the sails somewhat right and click the button on the autopilot and read for a while as the boat moves somewhat close to the wind

It's all about what level of sailing knowledge you want.

Many are here just to go places and then work on their boat. Others like the sailing aspect, while still others actually enjoy traveling.

It's all up to the skipper.

Sailing (racing) upwind (or downwind) though for 10-20 miles with boats all around you with everyone making slight sheeting and rig adjustments does keep your attention especially during a distance race if the first long leg is upwind for 50-55 miles.

It's can be very interesting .........or you can set the autopilot and daydream

Speaking of autopilots they do allow you to have a beer when you are within site of your destination. For me in the first video, it's that headland center right ......that is a safe bay to anchor out of this wind.

A front had just rolled in and the temp drop by about 20 degrees. The wind suddenly cranked up. It's even causing my good old cruising boat to heel slightly .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq1bSb7J8VE

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Rob, Not to belabor the point but a C&C 40/41 is not an old IOR raceboat. They are production racer cruisers with full interiors and are each a finished product. As such they will command more money (and require less work).

My suggestion was for a serious old race boat. A stripped out boat with 22 sails or such but no stove or toilet. That is where you'll find the bargains.

OooOOOOOooooo....

*opens new browser tab to look at boat porn*


On a more serious note, there's an old race boat on one of the sale sites. They ripped the chainplates out of the hull through the deck during a race and dismasted the boat. The damage extends to internal stringers, grid, a bulkhead being displaced, and structural ribs as well as the deck being shredded. The seller still wants almost the same $$$ as for an equivalent boat that isn't completely destroyed. Which makes me wonder at how much abuse old racing boats have suffered that doesn't show up until after it's too late.

[DMF Sailing]

Back to the original point of the original post for a moment, where I sail, this is fun for a few hours. But don't want to do it all day.

Pictured, beating into (thankfully offshore) 20-25, sturdy Sabre 30, Mass. Bay ...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

OooOOOOOooooo....

*opens new browser tab to look at boat porn*


On a more serious note, there's an old race boat on one of the sale sites. They ripped the chainplates out of the hull through the deck during a race and dismasted the boat. The damage extends to internal stringers, grid, a bulkhead being displaced, and structural ribs as well as the deck being shredded. The seller still wants almost the same $$$ as for an equivalent boat that isn't completely destroyed. Which makes me wonder at how much abuse old racing boats have suffered that doesn't show up until after it's too late.

You don't want a boat that's been raced hard.

We racers tend to abuse our boats. We'll do anything to win the Cup, Broken Mast, or whatever the winning trophy is.

Racers push their boats to and past their limits ....... then at least on monohulls, many times there are crew aboard that are clueless and are grabbing on stanchions for dear life bending them out of shape or cracking the deck........

Sails are stretched, sheets tightened way hard, etc, etc, and sometimes collisions

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'd say knowing how to sail the boat well even helps a cruising sailor even though most anyone can sort of get the sails somewhat right and click the button on the autopilot and read for a while as the boat moves somewhat close to the wind

It's all about what level of sailing knowledge you want.

Many are here just to go places and then work on their boat. Others like the sailing aspect, while still others actually enjoy traveling.

It's all up to the skipper.

This is the crux of the thread. I was just wondering why some people do almost everything they can to avoid doing what their boat is designed to do.

I had not considered the fact that some people own their boat for other reasons than sailing it. There's the social aspect, the solitary aspect, the working-on-dreams-that-will-never-be-realized aspect, and many many more.

Which is fine if those are your thing. I just didn't understand.