Sailing upwind

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Really?

I have actually spent years standing on the jetty watching the boats go out and come back in again.

They leave at 10am and are back by 3 pm. Weekend after weekend after weekend this is the clock by which you can set your picnicking hours.

The ones who leave in the fog at 7am and don't come back that afternoon are, presumably, lost at sea.

More seriously, I assume that these boats aren't "day" sailors but are instead part of the few who actually sail upwind when it's required. Unless they motor in during the dead of night under cover of darkness to hide their shame.

And this seems to go against the instigation for this thread, those You Tubers who moan and complain about how awful it is to have to sail upwind 50 Nm from one Caribbean Island paradise to the next one in the chain.

Now I'm once again wondering if that's because they don't arrive before 5 (and happy hour).

It's probably best to listen when you have little experience .

Cruisers typically leave for days, more often weeks, months or even years. They're not '10am to 3pm' sailors. Those are called daysailers. Nothing wrong with that at all, and many do both. But that's not cruising.

Once again, no one but you is saying cruisers don't sail to wind when required. Most are wise and experienced enough to know it's not something to be done lightly is all. And the boat that goes faster to wind that on a reach or run is a very rare boat indeed.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

...They leave at 10am and are back by 3 pm. Weekend after weekend after weekend this is the clock by which you can set your picnicking hours.

The ones who leave in the fog at 7am and don't come back that afternoon are, presumably, lost at sea.

More seriously, I assume that these boats aren't "day" sailors but are instead part of the few who actually sail upwind when it's required...

In my area many "cruisers" leave a 7:00 or earlier. I ask, "Why? There is no wind until 11:00AM"

I just get a blank stare.

But that is the point, if you leave at 07:00 you get at least 4 hours with no wind. That is intentional on their part. And if the wind is against them they will motor the whole way and that suits them just fine.

Me, I'll leave at 11:00 when the breeze fills in and if it means I have to sail through the night to get to my destination, so be it. I'm not motoring anywhere if I can be sailing, to windward or otherwise.

Here is another observation:

I see people head out of the marina on a trip to somewhere. They immediately put the peddle to the metal and motor at high speed right along the rhumb line. As soon as they hoist the main, (about a mile along their route) and they see the mainsail flogging, they just keep motoring, probably all the way. "The wind is on the nose!" I go out and hoist the sails before I've gotten 100mt and see which direction I can best sail towards my destintion, and that's the way we go. The point is to get the main up as soon as we can, bear away, and turn off the motor. Ahhh, silence.

The day sailors around here motor out into the bay, unroll the genoa, and laze along having snacks and drinks, and when it's time to go home they roll up the genoa and turn on the motor. The main rarely gets hoisted.

So yes, there are a lot of people who just are not interested in actually sailing. But hey, there is room for them in the boating world too. I have no problem with that.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In my area many "cruisers" leave a 7:00 or earlier. I ask, "Why? There is no wind until 11:00AM"

I just get a blank stare.

But that is the point, if you leave at 07:00 you get at least 4 hours with no wind. That is intentional on their part. And if the wind is against them they will motor the whole way and that suits them just fine.

Me, I'll leave at 11:00 when the breeze fills in and if it means I have to sail through the night to get to my destination, so be it. I'm not motoring anywhere if I can be sailing, to windward or otherwise.

Here is another observation:

I see people head out of the marina on a trip to somewhere. They immediately put the peddle to the metal and motor at high speed right along the rhumb line. As soon as they hoist the main, (about a mile along their route) and they see the mainsail flogging, they just keep motoring, probably all the way. "The wind is on the nose!" I go out and hoist the sails before I've gotten 100mt and see which direction I can best sail towards my destintion, and that's the way we go. The point is to get the main up as soon as we can, bear away, and turn off the motor. Ahhh, silence.

The day sailors around here motor out into the bay, unroll the genoa, and laze along having snacks and drinks, and when it's time to go home they roll up the genoa and turn on the motor. The main rarely gets hoisted.

So yes, there are a lot of people who just are not interested in actually sailing. But hey, there is room for them in the boating world too. I have no problem with that.

Or this: It takes two hours to get out of the narrow, treacherous, busy, winding channels. May as well motorsail out, and unfurl the jenny once I clear the morse alpha and the wind picks up.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I get it, I really do.

But, isn't the fact that there is a good business in delivery from Mexico back to SoCal in line with the point I'm making? Which is: Why don't people sail upwind?

As I said above, there is more than just 1 "Channel Island" and conditions aren't always "benign." Pt Conception creates a wind sheer that runs in an almost straight line south between the northernmost Channel Islands and the mainland. Sailing west of that line is a LOT different than when you're east of it. It isn't smooth water and calm winds over there.

I have never been in a boat going downwind, except with a spinnaker deployed, that had a higher SOG than when close hauled. It might be me and my inexperience, but for me that's always been the case. Modern sails aren't designed to be parachutes, they're airfoils and work best when used that way.

I wasn't attempting to put anyone down. I was just making an observation that, from my perspective, most people in sailboats don't seem to like sailing and seem to prefer "boating."

Don't forget San Miguel! You're right. we have the full range of experiences available to us around here! But it can be very enjoyable to combine morning motoring with afternoon (spirited) sailing here. Motoring from Ventura up to Santa Barbara and then sailing over to Bechers Bay is a great way to get a little of everything in one (long) day. BTW the SOG in running downwind is deceptive since it seems so undramatic. You can be cooking right along SOG and yet think yer hardly moving.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I get it, I really do.

But, isn't the fact that there is a good business in delivery from Mexico back to SoCal in line with the point I'm making? Which is: Why don't people sail upwind?

As I said above, there is more than just 1 "Channel Island" and conditions aren't always "benign." Pt Conception creates a wind sheer that runs in an almost straight line south between the northernmost Channel Islands and the mainland. Sailing west of that line is a LOT different than when you're east of it. It isn't smooth water and calm winds over there.

I have never been in a boat going downwind, except with a spinnaker deployed, that had a higher SOG than when close hauled. It might be me and my inexperience, but for me that's always been the case. Modern sails aren't designed to be parachutes, they're airfoils and work best when used that way.

I wasn't attempting to put anyone down. I was just making an observation that, from my perspective, most people in sailboats don't seem to like sailing and seem to prefer "boating."

Actually, for most boats it’s a beam reach that’s fastest, due to sails still working as airfoils with attached flows and set to a much greater angle to the centreline.

As for boating vs sailing, absolutely true. And that’s OK.

[CassidyNZ]

For us it’s about keeping my wife (who is a reluctant mariner) happy and that just about trumps everything else.

At home, we sail in an area where one can get to 50 different anchorages in half a day’s sailing and choosing your weather is simple. Then beating is OK and the little “adrenaline rush” of sailing upwind is acceptable, even nice.

But for a trip up to the “islands” I’ll do just about anything to avoid the frantic-ness of beating into rolling seas, choppy water, stronger winds. When the boat is awash and everything feels under pressure and one is clinging onto stuff just to stay in one place, wife-peace goes out the window and tension other than in the rigging pervades.

I’ll wait for a week or more to get a weather window that limits the possibility of beating. If in that window something different happens that would cause us to beat, my AP is set to follow the wind. In other words, the boat will stay “comfortable”, really, no matter what. If the wind shift is enough to warrant a tack/gybe to make positive progress without beating, so be it. If we have to sail an extra 200nm to get to the destination without the “non-structural tension”, so what? Who’s in a hurry?

Here’s an admission - we have been on a voyage to Tonga when a sudden change in the weather saw us beating in 25kn strengthening and the sea getting more unruly throughout the day. Mrs got real twitchy and frightened. We were 300nm from home, 600nm from the destination. I turned around and sailed home. Was it a good choice? The same night SV Platino, sailing in the same system, killed two people and was abandoned. That’s not why we turned, we only heard of the disaster a day after we arrived in Opua. We turned because we don’t do “windward”.

Long story short, day sailing I enjoy windward sailing to an extent. Voyaging? Nah! I don’t sail to weather. My last trip back from Fiji was 7 days, average 165nm/day, left Momi Bay on a port tack, beam reached all the way, took the sails in outside Opua Marina still on the same port tack. Just gotta be patient.

[MicHughV]

Nothing goes to weather like a Boeing 747....

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's probably best to listen when you have little experience .

Cruisers typically leave for days, more often weeks, months or even years. They're not '10am to 3pm' sailors. Those are called daysailers. Nothing wrong with that at all, and many do both. But that's not cruising.

Once again, no one but you is saying cruisers don't sail to wind when required. Most are wise and experienced enough to know it's not something to be done lightly is all. And the boat that goes faster to wind that on a reach or run is a very rare boat indeed.

Go back and read the OP. It's not "ME" who is saying people won't sail to windward, it's the people who post you tube videos saying it.

I'm only asking why they don't.

So far, I've heard that about half do and the other half has a ton of excuses why they don't.

It's uncomfortable.
It's hard on the boat.
My "crew" doesn't like it.
It's too difficult in narrow channels.
Too dangerous.
Faster to go downwind.


Meanwhile, the ones who do are like...


YEAH BABY!!!


Maybe it's me. I dunno.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Nothing goes to weather like a Boeing 747....

I'll see your 747 and raise you a WP-3D Orion.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Don C L

*snip*

You can be cooking right along SOG and yet think yer hardly moving.

I'm learning in a Catalina 22. 3 weeks ago we were jibing on a broad reach starboard tack not too far off the surfline along Silverstrand beach. I could visually see how fast we were going.

Jibed to a port tack and came up to a beam reach to go back to the harbor. Same boat, same WAFI helmsman, same sails, same wind speed and direction. Nothing changed except going from downwind to a beam reach. The SOG was a lot faster on the beam reach.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I get it, I really do.

But, isn't the fact that there is a good business in delivery from Mexico back to SoCal in line with the point I'm making? Which is: Why don't people sail upwind?

As I said above, there is more than just 1 "Channel Island" and conditions aren't always "benign." Pt Conception creates a wind sheer that runs in an almost straight line south between the northernmost Channel Islands and the mainland. Sailing west of that line is a LOT different than when you're east of it. It isn't smooth water and calm winds over there.

I have never been in a boat going downwind, except with a spinnaker deployed, that had a higher SOG than when close hauled. It might be me and my inexperience, but for me that's always been the case. Modern sails aren't designed to be parachutes, they're airfoils and work best when used that way.

I wasn't attempting to put anyone down. I was just making an observation that, from my perspective, most people in sailboats don't seem to like sailing and seem to prefer "boating."

Well Rob, I did know that there are other channel islands out there... I've sailed to most of them. But you were talking about how your local (real?) sailors did the trip to Catalina, not to the outer islands... and that's not a real tough arena to sail in, up wind or down.

From here (Channel Islands Harbor), even a (long) day sail to Catalina Island would mean a 70 Nm return trip "upwind" against the current the whole way. People do it all the time.

And while it may be true that YOU have never been in a boat that is faster downwind than upwind, that is not a common experience in cruising boats (or most boats of any sort for that matter). Example: Our current boat has a hull speed of 9+ knots. Under ideal conditions, we can approximate that speed close hauled, but those conditions are pretty rare. In moderate winds (~20 kts true) and flattish water, we can exceed that speed a bit (low tens) on an apparent beam reach. But downwind in a breeze, with poled out genoa and mainsail, and modest following seas we easily reach low 12s and have had a few mid 15s to enliven our sailing. Sailing as we do with only two aging cruisers as crew, we don't use a kite in strong winds... only as a speed improver in light stuff, so I don't know what sort of speeds that sail might offer us. And removing a couple of tons of our worldly possessions might help too!

So yes, I reckon that your lack of experience (as you suggest above) might influence your outlook... and perhaps your opinions of other's sailing habits as well. There may well be folks who own sailing yachts that don't like to sail and seldom do so. But there are plenty of cruisers who don't fit your description as "boaters" and yet who avoid passages to windward when possible. The folks like Fred (Wings) represent the far end of the curve... inveterate sailors who resist the motoring urge nearly always, and they deserve our admiration. Maybe Fred is the only one here that you view as a real sailor... few of us cruisers are as dedicated as he and his wife are.

Jim

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well Rob, I did know that there are other channel islands out there... I've sailed to most of them. But you were talking about how your local (real?) sailors did the trip to Catalina, not to the outer islands... and that's not a real tough arena to sail in, up wind or down.



And while it may be true that YOU have never been in a boat that is faster downwind than upwind, that is not a common experience in cruising boats (or most boats of any sort for that matter). Example: Our current boat has a hull speed of 9+ knots. Under ideal conditions, we can approximate that speed close hauled, but those conditions are pretty rare. In moderate winds (~20 kts true) and flattish water, we can exceed that speed a bit (low tens) on an apparent beam reach. But downwind in a breeze, with poled out genoa and mainsail, and modest following seas we easily reach low 12s and have had a few mid 15s to enliven our sailing. Sailing as we do with only two aging cruisers as crew, we don't use a kite in strong winds... only as a speed improver in light stuff, so I don't know what sort of speeds that sail might offer us. And removing a couple of tons of our worldly possessions might help too!

So yes, I reckon that your lack of experience (as you suggest above) might influence your outlook... and perhaps your opinions of other's sailing habits as well. There may well be folks who own sailing yachts that don't like to sail and seldom do so. But there are plenty of cruisers who don't fit your description as "boaters" and yet who avoid passages to windward when possible. The folks like Fred (Wings) represent the far end of the curve... inveterate sailors who resist the motoring urge nearly always, and they deserve our admiration. Maybe Fred is the only one here that you view as a real sailor... few of us cruisers are as dedicated as he and his wife are.

Jim

Wow. 15 kts. Very cool.

I'm no Stephen Hawking, but I would assume that exceeding hull speed by very much pointing very high upwind in most conditions would be pretty tricky, whereas downwind doing so stands to reason.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

So far, I've heard that about half do and the other half has a ton of excuses why they don't.

I have no particular reason to make “excuses” to do what works for me. YMMV. But it is interesting how those who do what you do have “reasons”, those that do it differently have “excuses”.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I'm learning in a Catalina 22. 3 weeks ago we were jibing on a broad reach starboard tack not too far off the surfline along Silverstrand beach. I could visually see how fast we were going.

Jibed to a port tack and came up to a beam reach to go back to the harbor. Same boat, same WAFI helmsman, same sails, same wind speed and direction. Nothing changed except going from downwind to a beam reach. The SOG was a lot faster on the beam reach.

Oh sure, beam reach, as mentioned before, will drive you better than running. I was just saying running may SEEM slower than it is. (BTW there is a website, from UCSB I think, that tracks currents in the Santa Barbara channel; that may have been playing a role.)

Hey I am with you, I love driving the boat and feel her come to life in good winds and big rolling swells. And it's a good bet that there are MANY cruisers who really enjoy sailing their boats, and have decided to go cruising, who are probably out there doing it, having a blast and don't have any internet connection to join us here with their take on things! I kinda doubt they are very dogmatic about it though. I met a young family like that just the other day. (In their case they had just sailed and motored down the coast.) In fact I know of a couple folks like that there in Ventura harbor who are very active and avid sailors, who you'll see out at the islands, who one would probably never get to know until you meet them out there doing it. There was a gentleman and his daughters out there last summer who were in a really nice 35 footer (that he had built himself) who were on their second, no third, circumnavigation. I don't think he participates here or in other online forums, but he may, I could be wrong. He just didn't strike me as the type who would find this interesting.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I have never been in a boat going downwind, except with a spinnaker deployed, that had a higher SOG than when close hauled.

But what about the more important VMG/VMC ?