Sea Sickenss - The Holy Grail of Pills.....

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

... i always seem to have heightened reactions to any kind of med, i am not at all interested in trying the different meds out there.

does anyone know if HYPNOSIS has been known to work?

At a fundamental level, seasickness for most people is a learned behavior, sort of like mild PTSD (after the first episode) to help protect you. So like all learned behaviors, the more you think/fear something will happen/repeat, the more you'll look for evidence that it's happening (observation bias). And with something like seasickness, this hypervigilance to body sensations invariably will find some evidence "it's starting! it's starting!" such that the response...the over-response to the body sensations...sends anxiety, stress hormones, etc, through the roof, snowballing into seasickness.

The paradox of hypnosis is that the more one believes in hypnosis, quite frankly the more one is capable of both causing themselves problems with the power of self-suggestion AND of self-suggesting themself out of the problematic belief in the first place (saving time/money with the therapist). In other words, hypnosis clearly can work, but if you can just learn to believe that you're tricking yourself into believing that you're more "always" sensitive to X,Y,Z...then you'll stop being sensitive to X,Y,Z. A big if, but something to think about. [NOTE: generalizing here WRT over-react to everything types]

By nature people tie themselves into Gordian knots...it's an innate self-defense mechanism. The world's oldest volunteer profession is teaching people how the knot is imaginary, that it's a self-defense mechanism that can be ignored depending on circumstances. The world's oldest paid profession is endorsing that the knot is real, and that you've got to barter something to get it untied...until it ties itself up again.

Odansetron has been shown ineffective for alleviating motion sickness in multiple placebo-controlled trials, nontheless we see evidence of it working.

To not recognize the power of suggestion causes the evolution of all types of "try this" and "buy that" behavior. Conspiracy theorists could therefor argue that the public is kept in the dark about this concept to make people buy stuff; clearly people's desire is to buy stuff more than fix stuff with their own internal contemplation.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^^
I had some success with the affirmation, "My body is coping better and better at sea." I'd admit progress wasn't fast enough to satisfy me. But I do know i can use affirmations to help many things.

For those who are unfamiliar with them, affirmations are things you tell yourself to make life better. They work best when you consider that you may be re-programming yourself, so set a number of times per day, you'll say them to yourself. The book I read about them recommended 7 repeats, and of course, 7 is one of those mystic numbers. I'd think ten might work better, ya know? Three or more times per day, till whatever it is is right. Works for some.

Ann

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

^^^^^
I had some success with the affirmation, "My body is coping better and better at sea." I'd admit progress wasn't fast enough to satisfy me. But I do know i can use affirmations to help many things.

For those who are unfamiliar with them, affirmations are things you tell yourself to make life better....
...The book I read about them recommended 7 repeats, and of course, 7 is one of those mystic numbers. I'd think ten might work better, ya know? Three or more times per day, till whatever it is is right. Works for some.

Thanks for adding this. I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but this practice goes by other names (e.g. prayer, meditation) across civilizations back to prehistoric times. # of times/day as directed by the prophet of one's choosing. If the practice didn't work for a lot of people, it stands to reason it wouldn't be so prevalent. Dalai Lama suggests that the change comes from within, others' MMV.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Singularity

At a fundamental level, seasickness for most people is a learned behavior, sort of like mild PTSD (after the first episode) to help protect you.

While I agree that there is some truth to that statement, I'm afraid it's going to come across as dismissive to anyone who suffers true seasickness.

Those who are afflicted don't like to be told "it's all in your mind."

Of course everyone is different. I've observed a wide spectrum in how easily people can be affected, and under what conditions.

Seasickness is real, and for most people, it can't be simply willed away. Time underway is generally the best long-term solution. But there are people who never, or almost never, get sick. They are the ones who insist it's all in your mind. There are others who get sick from simply stepping aboard. Both ends of the spectrum are rare. Most of us have a point at which we start getting green around the gills.

Short-term solutions, as seen in this thread, vary greatly with the individual. There are a few stand-bys which work for most people, most of the time. But just about every proposed cure has its adherents, so I think it's best to try them all until you find what works best for you and your crew. I'd recommend starting with something like ginger that has the fewest side effects, and only moving up to stronger drugs as needed.

I never knew Zofran existed until I heard about it in the ICU with a relative recently. It sounds like a good one to add to the arsenal, if it can be obtained and carried legally.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

While I agree that there is some truth to that statement, I'm afraid it's going to come across as dismissive to anyone who suffers true seasickness.

Those who are afflicted don't like to be told "it's all in your mind."

Of course everyone is different. I've observed a wide spectrum in how easily people can be affected, and under what conditions.

Seasickness is real, and for most people, it can't be simply willed away.

You are absolutely correct, seasickness is real. Let me clarify (I'd already typed out a chapter and was trying to keep things shorter).

Motion sickness is sort of like a seizure or delerium. You can induce a seizure or delirium in anyone if you set the conditions right (example prolonged sleep deprivation + stress + overstimulation). The brain can only handle so much before things fall apart. And with the balance system, just like with seizures, all of us have a different threshold...how 'far we need to be pushed'...before we get seasick. Worse yet, the balance system is subject to mechanical issues like head colds/inner ear blockage/etc that can vary widely but imperceptibly even within an individual.

The power of self-suggestion principle I referred to above is for the people whose perception of self is such that they believe that they are predisposed to seasickness to explain why they suffer more from it.

But correct, seasickness is real for everyone and I didn't mean to imply that it was always just a problem caused by consciously over-thinking.

Otherwise...individual by individual...a theoretical thing to do would be for an individual to take notes on what circumstances (food, meds, sea-state, stress, etc) worked and didn't work for them. But even the problem with this is that there are unknowable unknowables, and taking notes can make one neurotic, hypervigilant.

Avoiding foods with high histamine content on disembark day -2 until +5 or so seems like a reasonable thing to do that doesn't cost money and shouldn't hurt anything.

[Scarlettn]

I guess under severe conditions, anyone can succumb to sea sickness. People who routinely get sea sick in relatively normal conditions don't belong on boats (I'm sure I'll get backlash for saying that, but people with carpal tunnel don't play piano)..
I am not a sea sick person. I got sick once in a squall after 5 hours, the storm was slow moving with us. Also, many hours of a quartering condition, can get to me, you know conditions where the boat rocks both fore/aft and beam/side to side, in the same motion...
I have 1 recommendation.. MOTION EASE. Just rub behind your ears. Smells funny, but works immediately.
It totally works because it addresses the source of the condition which is your Eustachian tubes in your ears, and will help even after the queasy starts, and will lessen suffering of those who are sick.

[KLo]

Here in the States, Bonine seems to be very effective for my guests. Also, marijuana cures nausea (for many cancer treatment patients too). Edibles with low THC are available in my state.

[Charles S]

Originally Posted by UFO

I have been undertaking a few experiments on some lab rats (read friends) in regards to Sea Sickness tablets, as my wife suffers a form of vertigo/sea sickness when she gets out of still waters - Basically she has to lie down as everything spins around her - although she is not sick.



I know others on this forum have espoused the virtues of Stugeron, but I thought I'd share some first hand experience of 3 people who suffer from Sea Sickness.


Being in Australia I had to get them from outside of the country as they do not sell them here for some reason.


The first subject who suffers quite badly from seasickness came on for a 3 day passage down the East Coast of Australia - Having popped a couple the night before and one a couple of hours before sailing and then one every 8 hours he was absolutely fine with NO Sea Sickness symptoms, although the first 24 hours he was very drowsy/sleepy, but this passed.


The second subject wanted to come across the Australian Bight from Portland Victoria to Perth, but I thought that was a bit of a big one, so I picked him up in Albany WA. He has suffered sea sickness for about 10 years and again I dosed him up as before. Our first 3 hours was into a very bouncy 20Kt wind and nasty chop - Again he was very sleepy and at one point did feel a bit queasy but was not sick.


Once we got the wind behind us and moved offshore a bit he was a lot better. He took another pill and went to bed at the end of the day.


The next day he only took half a pill and was not sleepy at all - We hit some big weather with constant 34Kt winds with the highest gust to 42Kts and around a 6m swell which was throwing us around a bit - He was fine and did not take anymore for the rest of the trip!


My wife was the last subject - She took 2 the night before and was out like a light - The next morning she was still a bit groggy, but did not take anymore and made a 5 hours sail up the coast in 20Kt winds off the stern and a relatively calm ocean - Which was miraculous, as this would have had her lying down previously.


All of the subjects had tried other meds with varying degrees of success, but all felt that Stugeron was by far the best they had ever taken, the only drawback being the drowsiness.


I hope that helps anyone looking for a seasickness remedy

The side effect from Stugeron is a serious headache. The astronauts use promethazine which is much more effective than stugeron or the other OTC Meds like Bonine or Marezine.
The Navy did a test with airplane flying loops. Subjects with promethazine made ~120 loops while all other meds made it to 10-20 loops.
Best wishes
Charles

[Tubbs]

Stugeron 15 mg tabs - the holy grail as far as I'm concerned! But READ the instructions. It is very clear - take 2 tabs 2 hours before leaving and 1 every 8 hours thereafter. In my case, I carry on until I forget and find I'm not feeling ill!

[Namoian]

We have at various times had the Scopolamine patch, Stugeron, and Compazine on board. I think they all work to some degree but have more or less pronounced side effects depending on who is taking them. My own experiences:

a) Scopolamine patch. Used to require a prescription in Canada but now easily available. I used them on my first offshore trip, 30 years ago, and they probably made me drowsy but with the normal fatigue one experiences on a small boat in big waves, it was hard to tell. More recently I have seen it cause dizziness with the crew. On that first offshore trip, I touched one of my eyes (wore contact lenses) which then dilated so significantly in comparison to the other eye, that it looked like I was having a stroke - somewhat disconcerting for the other neophyte crew member aboard 100 miles offshore.

b) Stugeron. Was not available in Canada so had a crew member pick it up from the UK. Confusingly for him, he misheard the name and thought we wanted him to bring a sturgeon (i.e. fish) along which took a couple of emails to sort out. It suppressed sea sickness but did cause significant sleepiness, which this time, having a larger boat with more crew, was distinguishable from normal fatigue.

c) Compazine (Prochlorperazine) is available with a subscription in Canada although it is listed as an antipsychotic which caused the GP to look at me carefully after he looked it up. Depending on how things go, the antipsychotic action may have an unintended but positive effect on the voyage. Used it last fall crewing on a trip down the US West Coast to San Francisco with no seasickness and few side effects. I had used this medication before including on a Mahina Tiara "leg" in the South Pacific from NZ as it was recommended by John and Amanda Neal, again with little side effects.

The net-net is that these pills are probably a good idea, especially if you are unsure of how you will react to offshore conditions. They can often be discontinued after a two or three days at sea.

[tomtriad]

Originally Posted by CarlF

The first thing to realize about seasickness is that everyone is different. You have to experiment until you find something that works for you. Often, more than one thing is needed at the same time.

I too find a low 15mg dose of Stugeron the best desensitizer without feeling awful all day. I take one when waking up. One when first hitting the swell. And then one every four hours. My wife takes 1/2 pills.

At the first "Oh, oh" feeling or even a yawn, I lie down perfectly flat for 10 minutes. When I get up, I'll feel fine for quite a while.

I always have Mi-Del Swedish Style ginger snap cookies available.

Another recommended cure I'm now experimenting with is to wear one standard foam ear plug in my left ear (I'm right handed).

Here's the best piece I've ever seen on seasickness:

Mahina Expeditions - Offshore Cruising Instruction: Seasickness

I read link in CarlF's post and agree that it is both informative and thorough.

I am usually not susceptible to seasickness, except early in the season when I've not been passage making for several months.

I find that using a Transdermscope patch is effective; at the first sign of discomfort I will apply it, and after 12 -24 hours remove it as by then I'm acclimated to the motion of the ocean. I stick it back on the plastic film (or any plastic) and find that it can be reused for the balance of the 72 hours remaining. I know this is unorthodox, but it works! My wife, who weighs 75 lbs., uses 1/2 a patch to good effect.


I've had good results with premethazine pills, which are fast acting and last for about 6 hours, but they do make one drowzy. Not bad if you are going off watch to your bunk.

I find that making a ginger tea by boiling a quarter-size slice of fresh ginger in water for a few minutes is both soothing and hydrating. Also nibbling on saltine crackers and water are good for soothing a queezy stomach.

[Adiona]

I don’t have a package to check, but I believe diabetics need to be very cautious using scopolamine. Don’t want to trade o e problem for a bigger one.
My husband gets seasick and takes a generic Bonine before passages which does not make him sleepy. If you buy the Bonnie package off the shelf it used to be over $8.00 for 25. If you go to the counter and take to the pharmacist and ask for a bottle of the generic of Bonine ( check the Bonnie package ingredients or take one to the counter with you) same name same dosage, 100 tablets were $1-2. Had to buy the whole unopened bottle tho. A big savings and they are the exact thing.

[Adiona]

Note to Captains and keepers of the Medical kit onboard.
As I read these comments I would urge caution. I saw someone recommend Compazine. I am allergic to Compaxine, which requires an urgent trip to the Er to treat. I am probably in the minority with this allergy but As Captains we are responsible and liable for anything we give to our crew. So be very sure no one has allergies, or at least has tried these on shore before heading out to sea. There are also numerous bad drug combinations so maybe it would be a good idea for crew check with their doctor before taking another drug at sea far away from an ER.

[ashmun]

All really great replies. We’ve been using the scopolamine patches for 15+ years without any incidents of hallucination and excellent results for preventing sea sickness. As a rules of thumb, we wear them for crossings since you never know when you’re going to have to spend hours in the engine room or bilge.

The scopolamine patch (Transdermscope) directions say to wash your hands before and after putting the patch on, not to touch your eyes after touching the patch. We also put a bandaid on over the patch to keep it in place from rain and keep the sweat out. He bandaid also keep our eyes safe from accidentally touching the patch and then our eyes.

Occasionally the bandaid and patch wash off while changing sails, we notice this because we start feeling seasick. When this happens, we just repeat the procedure of washing our hands before and after and using the bandaid to hold it and cover it - no more seasickness. We keep Stugeron onboard for longer patches since the scopolamine patches can only be worn 3 days behind one ear and another 3 days behind the other ear.

WARNING: DO NOT CUT the scopolamine patches in half or anything else. The patches deliver the medication over time (max 3 days), getting the liquid on your skin or in your eye WILL cause hallucinations. The patches were practically band in the USA for years because boaters were cutting the patches in half to save money. Now the patches are only available in the USA by prescription or w/o up in Canada.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by UFO

....as my wife suffers a form of vertigo/sea sickness when she gets out of still waters - Basically she has to lie down as everything spins around her - although she is not sick.

I suffer from Mal De Disembarquement (MDD) syndrome. It doesn't occur on small boats, but it does occur after I spend several days on a large cruise ship.

I don't get seasick, however cruise ships and ferries are the only place I get a VERY slight queezy feeling for the first 24 hours (oddly, food seems to help this feeling). However, after spending several days on a large cruise ship, once I get off, I have vertigo for 3-4 days. Not that, "I feel like I'm rocking" (sealegs). Full blown vertigo.

I can spend weeks on our 39 foot boat with no issues, no seasickness, no MDD symptoms. Weird.