So walk me through the in-mast furling mainsail

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do the same thing. By "two handed" I meant two of my own hands, not two people -- I do single hand my boat too and quite a bit.


I'm glad it works well for you. I don't like it much. But my furling drum has been slowly wearing smooth, which makes it harder and harder as you have to tail the line harder to get it to grip. I'll be replacing mine now so maybe I'll feel different afterwards.


In general I find it attractive to get rid of all the furling lines. The deck would be a lot neater, the cockpit simplified. I use a three dimensional twing system for the sheet leads for my blade jib, which requires extra lines, and I'm often using barber haulers. It's a lot of spaghetti. Getting rid of three furling lines would be great.

Agree - just sheets would be nice (that electric option ........)
In the meantime, hopefully the new double braid will solve the slipping problem on that drum for you.
Maybe also a pair of turning blocks just below the drum, that bring the two sides of the line closer together under the drum. That will ensure fuller and better contact with the perimeter of the drum. As it is, there is less than half the drum in contact.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David B

Agree - just sheets would be nice (that electric option ........)
In the meantime, hopefully the new double braid will solve the slipping problem on that drum for you.
Maybe also a pair of turning blocks just below the drum, that bring the two sides of the line closer together under the drum. That will ensure fuller and better contact with the perimeter of the drum. As it is, there is less than half the drum in contact.

I've got both the new double braid, and the turning blocks. I hope it will work better with the new drum. In any case, there is zero chance I am going to invest in converting this mast to electric, so I will have to live with this, as long as I own this boat.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've got both the new double braid, and the turning blocks. I hope it will work better with the new drum. In any case, there is zero chance I am going to invest in converting this mast to electric, so I will have to live with this, as long as I own this boat.

Let us know how you go then.

[Na Mara]

My perfect rig is true cutter with a fully-battened slab-reefing mainsail with four reefs in it, all reefing done at the mast on a big flat working area surrounded by granny-bars. Unfortunately, my perfect production boat is a Regina 43 where the mast is too far forward for a true cutter. Even more unfortunately, the one that I could get my hands on has a top quality Selden inmast reefing rig. I did a lot of sole searching when I bought the boat about whether I should wait for one of the rare examples with slab-reefing, or even whether I should replace the mast on the one I did buy, and eventually came down on the side of loving her for what she is and not what I would wish her to be.

The rig is a bomb-proof, over-speced work of art. The winch assembly at the mast for the inmast roller is beautiful and so well engineered it would literally be vandalism to replace it with anything built today. To throw all that away to put in a new mast would just be criminal. So, having decided to keep the mast, I had to make the damn thing work. The mast is from the era before vertical battens so the opening for the sail is narrow by today’s standards (15mm). The previous owners had decided to upgrade their original unbattened mainsail with a fully battened one. This set beautifully with a nice big roach, however, it was a PITA getting it out of the mast. I don’t know if it ever worked, but by the time I owned the boat the batten pockets on the leech of the sail were jamming in the slot nearly every single time. It didn’t matter what boom angle I tried, what angle of attack to the wind, how much outhaul tension. Nothing helped! I could always get the sail in, but more often than not I couldn’t get it out again.

I have sailed boats with battenless roller reefing mainsails and I wasn’t going to go back there if I could help it. Fortunately, here in Malmo we have Gransegel on our doorstep so I took the problem to them and we came up with a solution. We found the thinnest carbon fiber battens we could find and gransegel switched out the original battens with these. The new battens are only 5mm in diameter but are fully 10m long. This is not quite long enough for the longest battens toward the luff so I had to loose a little roach off the top of the sail to do this. They also redesigned the batten pockets to minimize their thickness over the whole sail but especially at the leech. The result is a sail with almost a full roach but with a maximum thickness of only 10mm on a 43ft boat.

With this new sail the sail no longer jams in the slot with correct boom angle and out haul tension and, like dockhead says, I can reef on almost any point of sail.

The next ‘’problem’’ with the system for some in my family is that reefing from the cockpit was a chore. As Reginas are pilothouse boats the leads from the mast to the cockpit for reefing lines are awkward and this meant it was an art to get just the right tension on the endless reefing line around the drum at the mast. After bending a pushpit due to a crew error with the system, I decided that reefing from the cockpit wasn’t worth the trouble and we could all just reef at the mast. Reginas have a great working area at the mast, I like working there, and the sail rolls in and out like a treat under full control from there. This, though, was thoroughly vetoed by swimbo amongst others. Basically, the point was that they all wanted to be able to control the rig from the safety of the cockpit and I should just get with the program and grow up a bit.

The solution to that problem was an expensive upgrade to the mast with Selden’s new retrofit electric furling system. The cool thing about that system is that it fits entirely inside the mast and it augments rather than replaces your existing manual system. That meant I could keep the work of art manual system for myself and as backup, whilst enabling reefing from the cockpit at the push of a button for the plebs.

After spending a lot of money and a year or two on the system I now have a mainsail that I trust will go in and out of the slot fine on any point of sail (but best close hauled on starboard tack) and that can be worked from the cockpit. Would I have been better off spending that money (and the same again thrice over) on a new mast with slab-reefing instead? No, obviously not ! The marginal improvement in reliability at sea and sailing performance with a lighter slab-reefing rig would not be worth the cost, the violence to the great existing systems, nor the violence to my familial relations.

I summary, inmast can be a pain to get working reliably, but once it works reliably its a system that is very safe and easy to live with. If the boat you have comes with this system, then my advice it’s learn to love and make the most of it. If, on the other hand, your boat has slab-reefing, or you are buying a new production boat and can get it with slab-reefing, then go with that instead and enjoy the slight edge in performance and reliability over the alternative. The marginal loss in convenience is more than made up for by these factors IMHO.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

My perfect rig is true cutter with a fully-battened slab-reefing mainsail with four reefs in it,

I summary, inmast can be a pain to get working reliably, but once it works reliably its a system that is very safe and easy to live with. If the boat you have comes with this system, then my advice it’s learn to love and make the most of it. If, on the other hand, your boat has slab-reefing, or you are buying a new production boat and can get it with slab-reefing, then go with that instead and enjoy the slight edge in performance and reliability over the alternative. The marginal loss in convenience is more than made up for by these factors IMHO.

A nice read, and appreciate the effort you went to to write this up - thank you.

Quite a parallel to our own experience in some ways, and yes, those Selden systems are good! Interested in how much you paid for the electric upgrade on the main, and I assume this handles the outhaul as well?

Re your last comment - for us, we would put it the other way - for the small loss of performance, the significant increase in convenience is more than made up for. We all have different perspectives and needs .

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

My perfect rig is true cutter with a fully-battened slab-reefing mainsail with four reefs in it, all reefing done at the mast on a big flat working area surrounded by granny-bars. Unfortunately, my perfect production boat is a Regina 43 where the mast is too far forward for a true cutter. Even more unfortunately, the one that I could get my hands on has a top quality Selden inmast reefing rig. I did a lot of sole searching when I bought the boat about whether I should wait for one of the rare examples with slab-reefing, or even whether I should replace the mast on the one I did buy, and eventually came down on the side of loving her for what she is and not what I would wish her to be.

The rig is a bomb-proof, over-speced work of art. The winch assembly at the mast for the inmast roller is beautiful and so well engineered it would literally be vandalism to replace it with anything built today. To throw all that away to put in a new mast would just be criminal. So, having decided to keep the mast, I had to make the damn thing work. The mast is from the era before vertical battens so the opening for the sail is narrow by today’s standards (15mm). The previous owners had decided to upgrade their original unbattened mainsail with a fully battened one. This set beautifully with a nice big roach, however, it was a PITA getting it out of the mast. I don’t know if it ever worked, but by the time I owned the boat the batten pockets on the leech of the sail were jamming in the slot nearly every single time. It didn’t matter what boom angle I tried, what angle of attack to the wind, how much outhaul tension. Nothing helped! I could always get the sail in, but more often than not I couldn’t get it out again.

I have sailed boats with battenless roller reefing mainsails and I wasn’t going to go back there if I could help it. Fortunately, here in Malmo we have Gransegel on our doorstep so I took the problem to them and we came up with a solution. We found the thinnest carbon fiber battens we could find and gransegel switched out the original battens with these. The new battens are only 5mm in diameter but are fully 10m long. This is not quite long enough for the longest battens toward the luff so I had to loose a little roach off the top of the sail to do this. They also redesigned the batten pockets to minimize their thickness over the whole sail but especially at the leech. The result is a sail with almost a full roach but with a maximum thickness of only 10mm on a 43ft boat.

With this new sail the sail no longer jams in the slot with correct boom angle and out haul tension and, like dockhead says, I can reef on almost any point of sail.

The next ‘’problem’’ with the system for some in my family is that reefing from the cockpit was a chore. As Reginas are pilothouse boats the leads from the mast to the cockpit for reefing lines are awkward and this meant it was an art to get just the right tension on the endless reefing line around the drum at the mast. After bending a pushpit due to a crew error with the system, I decided that reefing from the cockpit wasn’t worth the trouble and we could all just reef at the mast. Reginas have a great working area at the mast, I like working there, and the sail rolls in and out like a treat under full control from there. This, though, was thoroughly vetoed by swimbo amongst others. Basically, the point was that they all wanted to be able to control the rig from the safety of the cockpit and I should just get with the program and grow up a bit.

The solution to that problem was an expensive upgrade to the mast with Selden’s new retrofit electric furling system. The cool thing about that system is that it fits entirely inside the mast and it augments rather than replaces your existing manual system. That meant I could keep the work of art manual system for myself and as backup, whilst enabling reefing from the cockpit at the push of a button for the plebs.

After spending a lot of money and a year or two on the system I now have a mainsail that I trust will go in and out of the slot fine on any point of sail (but best close hauled on starboard tack) and that can be worked from the cockpit. Would I have been better off spending that money (and the same again thrice over) on a new mast with slab-reefing instead? No, obviously not ! The marginal improvement in reliability at sea and sailing performance with a lighter slab-reefing rig would not be worth the cost, the violence to the great existing systems, nor the violence to my familial relations.

I summary, inmast can be a pain to get working reliably, but once it works reliably its a system that is very safe and easy to live with. If the boat you have comes with this system, then my advice it’s learn to love and make the most of it. If, on the other hand, your boat has slab-reefing, or you are buying a new production boat and can get it with slab-reefing, then go with that instead and enjoy the slight edge in performance and reliability over the alternative. The marginal loss in convenience is more than made up for by these factors IMHO.

I appreciate this answer.

My perfect rig is true cutter with a fully-battened slab-reefing mainsail with four reefs in it, all reefing done at the mast on a big flat working area surrounded by granny-bars. <== you had me at "perfect"

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

I appreciate this answer.



My perfect rig is true cutter with a fully-battened slab-reefing mainsail with four reefs in it, all reefing done at the mast on a big flat working area surrounded by granny-bars. &lt;== you had me at "perfect"

My thoughts are very much in line with Na Maras.

Just to add a data point - we've just participated in a long distance (&gt;900 miles) race, as the only boat out of 52 with in-mast furling and with one of the worst ratings in the fleet due to low SA/D (16.5) and heavy weight compared to racing boats. Yet we were very competitive, far out performing our rating, running in third place at one point (uncorrected time) and finishing 12th overall (uncorrected time) despite losing half a day due to a blown up spinnaker.

The point being that although in-mast undoubtedly imposes a performance hit due to loss of roach, that doesn't mean that in-mast furling boats all sail like dogs as many people believe.

In the 2002 ARC, a Moody 64 with in-mast furling completed in 13 1/2 days, no. 1 in class and fourth overall, ahead of all but three of the racing boats.

I might not choose in-mast furling for my next boat, for which I'm thinking - ketch with wide-spaced masts and large mizzen, roachy full batten main and mizzen with lazy jacks.

But I'm not entirely sure. I'm feeling awfully good about my in-mast furling right now, after almost 2000 miles of sailing with it over the last few weeks. I did a major service of the system just before departure, and it's working like butter. I am not suffering from the performance hit.

[Sailor_Al]

I have a Selden IMF. I had a few issues initially, but after reading the manual and following the instructions, I single hand my 45 reefed often. I find it easier then lazy jacks. You do need to follow the Selden's recommendations. Starboard tack and no power winch!

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by David B

A nice read, and appreciate the effort you went to to write this up - thank you.

Quite a parallel to our own experience in some ways, and yes, those Selden systems are good! Interested in how much you paid for the electric upgrade on the main, and I assume this handles the outhaul as well?

Re your last comment - for us, we would put it the other way - for the small loss of performance, the significant increase in convenience is more than made up for. We all have different perspectives and needs .

David B, You can get the system with a 2000 euro upgrade that gives you a reversible selftailing winch back in the cockpit that handles the outhaul for you but I chose not to do that for two reasons. 1. I have lovely classic Anderson winches and I would hate to loose one of those for the sake of this system and 2, correct tension on the outhaul is critical to a good roll into the mast and that changes depending on point of sail as you reef. It’s easy to feel that in you hand but the automated system will be set up with just a single target tension (if that). Basically, I trust myself and my crew here more than automated winch. If we keep to much tension on the system cuts out as a precaution. You want just slightly less tension than the cutout tension on the outhaul for the perfect roll on our boat at the start of the roll into the mast. Once the first two battens have rolled in less tension is needed.

Anyway, the system cost about 8000 euros in materials, installation and tax in Sweden. Expensive, but worth it in terms of familial strife avoided.

[Sailor_Al]

Na Mara
My system is manually operated. I do have a power winch for the main sheet, but Selden doesn't recommend it's use on the main furling. The boats previous owner showed me how the use the power wincheon the furling but if you make a mistake in furling and it jams, a large load is placed on the system. I've seen the winch mounts flex. If your doing it correctly the furling will operate freely. I do use the power winch on the out haul.

[Na Mara]

Sailor Al,

The motorized units from Selden apparently have a sensor that cuts out the motor for precisely this reason. If I try and wind in my mainsail with the electric inmast while keeping the outhaul under too much tension, the system just cuts out. Presumably this is to stop exactly the kind of problem you are talking about. If the sail were to jam on the way in the motor would experience similar loading and would thus cutout before anything serious happened. This is where the skill is in winding the sail in on my boat. You need enough outhaul to keep the sail from bunching, but not so much that the system thinks there is a jam thereby cutting out the motor.

If the motor cuts out its not a big problem. You just wait 2 seconds, release a bit more on the outhaul, and try again.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

David B, You can get the system with a 2000 euro upgrade that gives you a reversible selftailing winch back in the cockpit that handles the outhaul for you but I chose not to do that for two reasons. 1. I have lovely classic Anderson winches and I would hate to loose one of those for the sake of this system and 2, correct tension on the outhaul is critical to a good roll into the mast and that changes depending on point of sail as you reef. It’s easy to feel that in you hand but the automated system will be set up with just a single target tension (if that). Basically, I trust myself and my crew here more than automated winch. If we keep to much tension on the system cuts out as a precaution. You want just slightly less tension than the cutout tension on the outhaul for the perfect roll on our boat at the start of the roll into the mast. Once the first two battens have rolled in less tension is needed.

Anyway, the system cost about 8000 euros in materials, installation and tax in Sweden. Expensive, but worth it in terms of familial strife avoided.

I agree with this. Electrifying the furling mechanism is highly worthwhile. The endless furling line is a faff and needs three hands to operate with the outhaul. The outhaul, on the other hand, is fine handled the normal way, and even better since you will have much better feel for what's going on, even an electric winch like I have there.

[sail sfbay]

On my Selden in-mast continuous furling line I sometimes use a WinchRite hand held electric winch handle, holding it in one hand while maintaining tension on the outhaul while furling in OR furl-in line while furling out with my other hand.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree with this. Electrifying the furling mechanism is highly worthwhile. The endless furling line is a faff and needs three hands to operate with the outhaul. The outhaul, on the other hand, is fine handled the normal way, and even better since you will have much better feel for what's going on, even an electric winch like I have there.

See below re single-handing.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

David B, You can get the system with a 2000 euro upgrade that gives you a reversible selftailing winch back in the cockpit that handles the outhaul for you but I chose not to do that for two reasons. 1. I have lovely classic Anderson winches and I would hate to loose one of those for the sake of this system and 2, correct tension on the outhaul is critical to a good roll into the mast and that changes depending on point of sail as you reef. It’s easy to feel that in you hand but the automated system will be set up with just a single target tension (if that). Basically, I trust myself and my crew here more than automated winch. If we keep to much tension on the system cuts out as a precaution. You want just slightly less tension than the cutout tension on the outhaul for the perfect roll on our boat at the start of the roll into the mast. Once the first two battens have rolled in less tension is needed.

Anyway, the system cost about 8000 euros in materials, installation and tax in Sweden. Expensive, but worth it in terms of familial strife avoided.

Thanks for that. EUR8000 is expensive for a motor etc, but certainly worth considering for the future.
As for the powered winch, ours came the the port secondary winch powered, and without that, furling the main and genoa would be much more work - I use it exclusively - especially when single-handing.

Furling the genoa is just a matter of using the primary winch as a turning block and leading the furling line to the powered secondary, while keeping some tension on the sheet running through the primary winch - easy, but a motor at the base of the foil would be nice .....

For the main out, I just put the outhaul on the powered winch, and run one side of the loop through my gloved hand for tension, stopping every meter or so to bring in the slack on the other side of the loop.
For furling the main, the loop is on the powered winch, and both the outhaul and the other end of the loop, run through my gloved hand to maintain tension.

I do this regularly - having available crew makes it easier, but also, with just one, there is total control. A foot switch for the powered winch would be the ultimate for this configuration, freeing that other hand to pull in the slack on a continuous basis.