Surveyors - How Many do You Need

[CarlF]

It's important to manage your expectations in a survey. A cruising sailboat is a very complicated piece of equipment. It's unrealistic to expect much in the three to four hours of a typical survey. A two day survey would yield much more, but few are willing to pay for it.

So my practice is to accompany the surveyor and agree ahead of time on a reduced survey price if we stop the survey after an hour with no written report - which means the boat has flunked. This would be due to a very short list:

Structural problems or delamination
Signs of serious collision damage
Signs of bad repairs (= bad PO)
Extensive core rot or many blisters
Signs of water in the hull from flooding/sinking
Engine won't start or blows much smoke ( = bad PO to put boat on market without fixing first )

For me, these are the "walk away" items where fixing them is likely to be good money after bad.

I also tell the surveyor that I am primarily interested in items that would cost more than $500 to fix (although I'd like an informal list of small stuff he notices that I should get to). There's no reason for them to check every 12v outlet or door latch.

[john61ct]

Perfect, thanks, great list, exactly the sort of details I'm looking for!

[CarlF]

So to the PO's question,

I would just do the hull survey. A Mooring's charter boat's engine has a hard life but the company is good with oil changes and such. Of course, start the engine and check for smoke or strange sounds. Check forward and reverse. Make sure it charges. Assume you will have to replace the batteries soon.

Forget the rig inspection. After the purchase, have a rigger tune and inspect the rig. In the process, he'll repair any minor things. The list will be short on a five year old charter boat. This is basic maintenance.

I would also personally inspect the boat - start the engine, raise the sails, make a full inventory with pictures. Mark the sails, dinghy and outboard to make sure they stay with your boat. If there's something you don't like, talk to the Moorings. onsite staff. There's a good chance they'll fix it for you free. The business depends on quick sales after the boats comes off charter.

[Cadence]

Where did a 5K boat get into this?

[Tillsbury]

Perfectly normal to get three engineers, but you can opt out where you’re confident and comfortable paying for trouble. With boats I was looking at a structural survey was mandatory (in nz, you can’t buy a boat through a broker without one). They were about nz$1500 (us$1000). They don’t check every item, but they identify any serious structural problems with hull, deck, keel, rudder, hull penetrations, keel matrix, bulkheads etc and any water ingress. Although there’s a general condition report on the mechanics and rig, there is a clear notice that specialists should be employed to check those. You can get a marine engineer to look over the engine properly should you wish to. If you are relatively competent and have good records of the engine maintenance you might be ok about skipping this. After all, you’re going to be paying for the refurb if the engine needs it.

For insurance over here, a rigging inspection was mandatory by a qualified rigger from the insurer’s list. This was around nz$400 to check over everything to allow the insurance to go ahead. In my case, the rig is over 9 years old and is therefore not covered when sails are up except in the case of a total loss. Sadly this is now the norm with newer policies. When the standing rigging is professionally replaced it will be covered. For now, it’s self-insured as they say, as I have reasonable confidence in its condition visually and thanks to the survey, and knowing that it hasn’t been over stressed during its lifetime.

A current electrical and gas certificate give you some indications as to the safety of those systems.

For a more expensive boat, you may well be needing a lot more mechanical inspection of systems such as electronics, generators and whatever else is on there. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

I doubt if there are many boats out there on which you won’t want to spend a fair sum after purchase getting all the details seen to. If you’ve ever bought a brand new boat you will remember the painful length of the “optional extras” section of the invoice, which is a similar thing

[ferrailleur]

My survey next week on a modest but great Catalina 27:

My Annapolis based surveyor agreed for $25 per boat ft to drive one hour to the marina.

ON BOARD: He will inspect the condition on deck (soft spots/delamination, all attachments) and below, and the standing rigging (no climbing). He will cold start the engine, check the cooling and electrical system, the tanks, the siphons, the seacocks, etc.

ON THE HARD (I will pay for a temporary haul out with quick power washing). He will check for blisters, Catalina "smiles", cutlass bearing, prop, shaft, rudder, etc.

SAILING: (he agrees for a sailing test)….. power and sail....

CLIMBING ON TOP: I will do it myself with a 20ft ladder! after I but her!

[Fore and Aft]

Three surveyors is pretty standard here in Queensland.
As a surveyor I am not an expert in yacht riging or anything mechanical. I have a fair idea of what is right or wrong with most rigging and diesel engines and can offer a non professional opinion but that is not good enough for most insurance companies or even the company who provides me with Indemnity insurance.
I served a 9000 hour boat building aprenticeship in boat building in NZ and would not even consider calling myself an expert on boat construction. So for me a surveyor who can provide all three services would have to had a lot of training and experience.
Cheers

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

My Annapolis based surveyor

Please post their info, or via PM if you like?

TIA

[taxwizz]

Why not just pull the stick, inspect yourself, and replace the rigging if necessary? Maybe $150 each way. We pull our sticks every winter in Canada. (Don't get excited..LOL)

[SV Sailfish]

Originally Posted by john61ct

OK, so say I find my ideal bargain classic plastic for under $5K.. .

Let me get this straight John... Right now, you have no boat? And your ideal boat budget is under 5k?? And you have almost 5,000 posts on CF in 18 months???

Me thinks you should let your typing fingers cool down a bit and take a week off sir. Or possibly longer? (much, much longer) Please, I beg you.

And please John... do not respond to me. Please, please for God's sake, do not type a response back to me.

[john61ct]

Thanks so much for your concern, but. . .

[ferrailleur]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Please post their info, or via PM if you like?

TIA

https://www.google.com/search?q=pete...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The guy was recommended to me but bailed out at the last minute because I didn't book him right away...… DUH!.... I had to get the owner's OK first! He postponed any survey to 2 weeks down the road!

[wallythacker]

What with needing a rigger for rigging, an electronics tech for the toys, a diesel mechanic for the engine and a general surveyor all reporting on the boat

are we.....

heading down the road where one day we'll be told we need a hvac tech expert for our 110v/engine/Ac & heating systems? a finishing materials expert for our upholstery and cushions and headliners? a plumbing expert for all the plumbing and fittings? and so on. Where will this madness stop?

Until we hit that point I'm annoyed at paying some guy close to a grand for him to tell me that he didn't bother to test half or more of the equipment. Why isn't the temperature of the both the refrigerator and the freezer recorded? Why weren't all the burners and the oven lit and tested for functionality? Why weren't the AC outlets checked for reversed neutral and missing grounds? This is a boat for god sakes sitting in water. The perfect environment for electrical problems to kill people.

Hell, they don't even bother to push the button on a vacuflush to make sure it works.

I've been reading a lot of surveys and there's a definite trend of surveyors skipping over things. A lot of them aren't worth the paper they're on.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

https://www.google.com/search?q=pete...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The guy was recommended to me but bailed out at the last minute because I didn't book him right away...… DUH!.... I had to get the owner's OK first! He postponed any survey to 2 weeks down the road!

Peter is an excellent surveyor. Decades experience. Please remember this is peak season. If you did not book & schedule with him, he did not "bail" on you. Rather, it appears, his schedule filled with others ready to book.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by wallythacker

What with needing a rigger for rigging, an electronics tech for the toys, a diesel mechanic for the engine and a general surveyor all reporting on the boat

are we.....

heading down the road where one day we'll be told we need a hvac tech expert for our 110v/engine/Ac & heating systems? a finishing materials expert for our upholstery and cushions and headliners? a plumbing expert for all the plumbing and fittings? and so on. Where will this madness stop?

Until we hit that point I'm annoyed at paying some guy close to a grand for him to tell me that he didn't bother to test half or more of the equipment. Why isn't the temperature of the both the refrigerator and the freezer recorded? Why weren't all the burners and the oven lit and tested for functionality? Why weren't the AC outlets checked for reversed neutral and missing grounds? This is a boat for god sakes sitting in water. The perfect environment for electrical problems to kill people.

Hell, they don't even bother to push the button on a vacuflush to make sure it works.

I've been reading a lot of surveys and there's a definite trend of surveyors skipping over things. A lot of them aren't worth the paper they're on.

Sir;

From the outside looking in, it appears that you equate all boats as being equal with equal value. I am of the opinion that they are not. While the $5k boat may not warrant an HVAC technician, a $500K+ boat with 4 zones of reverse cycle, digital control AC system, a diesel fired hydronic heat system, and separate freezer & refrigeration just might warrant a tech's inspection. The R&R of a single digital control might exceed the tech's inspection cost.

As for soft goods inspection, the last time I shopped interior cushion replacement, I had sticker shock. In some instances, it just might be money well spent.

You state: "they don't even bother to push the button on a vacuflush to make sure it works." Was the boat prepared for survey & in commission. Or was it winterized & on land? Surveyors can be liable for damage they cause. It is the buyer's & boat owner's/broker's responsibility to ready a boat for (pre-purchase) survey but is incumbent on the surveyor to inform the prospective purchaser of the need for the boat to be readied for survey and the limitations of the survey.

It all depends on the boat, boat's intend purpose, intended purpose of the survey, value, etc. In the OP's instance, & from the outside looking in, his inspection costs just might be money well spent. Discovery of a defect after the boat's exit from charter or the loss of its' rig during transit with underwriters claim denial might just be too late.