Surveyors - How Many do You Need

[tmccaffery]

I am preparing to take possession of my boat (Leopard 40) that is in the Moorings Bahamas charter fleet. Part of the process permits me to have my own surveyor survey the boat both for off-hire and insurance purposes and I absolutely intend to do so. However, one apparently well respected surveyor that we were referred to stated that they only survey the hull -- they don't do engines and they don't climb masts.


The surveyor did recommend an engine surveyor, but did not have a recommendation for someone that would "climb the mast." So, it looks to me like I have to hire three separate surveyors, and fly them to/from the Bahamas, to get a complete survey on the boat. This doesn't seem to make much sense to me. However, since this is not something that I do every day I don't know if this is "normal" or if we are running into a surveyor "full employment" scheme to hire several surveyors when one can normally get the job done.


I have also contacted a local Bahamian surveyor that appears to do it all. So which one is taking an "unusual" approach to surveying the boat?

[MV Wanderlust]

Pretty common in Florida to have a general surveyor do everything but the engines and a separate mechanic to surveyor the engines and generator(s). Someone else will have to comment on a rigging surveyor.

[Sailmonkey]

It’s a bit of a crap shoot.

Although an engine survey is a beast unto itself. A general hull and equipment survey will note the serial numbers and general visual condition of the machinery. But to go into a deeper look requires different skills and equipment/time. Same for the rig. A general survey will note any glaring issues from the deck. However to go up the rig and perform a through inspection of all of the fittings, is again a different scope of work than the whole package.

Think of it like general practitioners and specialists. The general may be good enough, but to get to the bottom of some really odd things may require the specialist.

[old frog]

Your description sounds about right. The days of a simple recreational sailboat of which a general rec. marine surveyor is able to competently survey are long over.

The engine in the boat that your are looking at is not a simple low compression, carbureted, gasoline engine of which they can compression test, borescope, & oil test. Rather, it is one that has specific manufacturer's training & tools needed to competently assess.

As for going up the mast, in days of old (& current) my personal opinion is/was that a rec. marine surveyor doing rec. sail boats should be able & willing to up up the mast, within limits. However & again, things are no longer as simple as they used to be (thanks lawyers), many marinas will not permit them to. Also, most surveyors tend to work alone. So, who is their deck support safety person(s)? The buyer/broker? Whose liability/workers comp. coverage covers injury? Again, the industry has changed.

Even with that, a sail boat coming out of Caribbean charter needs (in my opinion) a very good rig inspection something beyond what most general surveyors have competency in. Add to that, many insurance carriers now have limits on age/location limits of rigs/locations/boat service history that require a rigger's inspection.

As for electronics, most surveyors are only able to power them up & do basic function tests. Depending upon complexity, inventory, & value, at some point it becomes prudent to hire an electronics tech to test. Same for other equipment.

ON edit: You ended your post with " a local Bahamian surveyor that appears to do it all. So which one is taking an "unusual" approach to surveying the boat?" It is your boat, your money, your decision. Caveat Emptor.

[bjymd]

It is essential to have someone experienced go up the mast to look at the rigging. If your surveyor will not comply, have a rigger go up. After 10 years, most rigging is at risk to fail, thought it may not happen until year 15. My 2004 needed all new rigging and held up to everything except IRMA. The surveyors I have had, ran the motor at 90% for 30 minutes to see if it overheated. If it runs well, and does not overheat you are in good shape. My surveyor also sent an oil sample to a lab for testing. Best wishes. Fair winds, following seas!

[bstreep]

When we had our boat surveyed, it took 12 hours. Including climbing the rig. As for the engine, what exactly are you looking for? You can test the engine oil pretty easily. But think about buying a new car. If you take it to your mechanic, he's going to look it over in an hour or so, and you buy the car. In other words, a good surveyor should be competent enough to look over your engine(s). As others have noted, it will require a rig inspection, possibly disassembly, to tell for sure. And if it's coming out of charter, I'd look seriously at a rerig.

[billknny]

Yes, having three surveyors go over a large sailboat is not at all unusual.

Some "regular" surveyors will climb the mast and issue a rigging report, but I am not aware of any that do what I would consider more that a minimally useful engine survey.

Just by way of example... you can not call a diesel engine "surveyed" without a compression test.

[roland stockham]

In my experience the 'standard survey' is basically an insurance valuation, it tells your insurgence company what a reasonable insured value for the boat is so they don't insure a lemon for more than it is worth and have the owner go out and sink it!
If you want a real 'condition survey' you need a marine engineer, mechanic, electrician and rigger. You may find someone with the necessary skills to do more than one job but they are each separate skill areas. They should do a full job going over every seam on the sails and each part of the rig, Compression tests on the engine and throughly check all aspects of the installation. Check each aspect of the electrical system and report on its suitability for what you want to do. For an ex charter boat I would expect recommendations for upgrades in some areas related to the change of use. For example electrical systems are commonly pretty basic and ground tackle is for 'lunch stops' not anchoring out.
What you should finish up with is a full engineering report. If you think about houses this is like the difference between a mortgage valuation for a sale and a structural surveyors report because you have subsidence! It will cost, these are highly skilled and experienced people and to do a good job will take a few hours to a day for each system.

It is unusual to get this done for a small boat as the cost is prohibitive but it would be normal if buying a commercial vessel. Larger and more expensive private boats are somewhere in between. On a 100ft yacht costing 1m+ definitely, on a 40ft sailboat almost definitely not as it will cost more than any likely repairs you are going to find but where the line is is personal and depends on your own skill and experience.
I would never do this as I can do most of it myself. If I was heading out for a two year cruise with family to an area where services are poor and electronics and engines where mystery black boxes to me I might think it was worth it for the peace of mind. A breakdown is somewhere like S America could cost more in shipping parts than the survey let alone the hassle of being stuck in port while stuff gets there which can take months and you may need to fly in engineers as well.
So bottom line is it depends on you, the boat and your intended cruising area.

[john61ct]

OK, so say I find my ideal bargain classic plastic for under $5K.

I have no clue how to evaluate her condition other than reading some "how to do your own survey" resources.

Yes the electrical system, and say it's an Atom 4 with good maintenance / repair receipts, starts right up and works well in the sea trial, so I won't pay for separate specialist there.

In looking for a good surveyor - ideally local to the boat, do people really pay for airline tickets?

What should my terminology be for what I'm looking for, not a full standard insurance valuation, just enough to decide whether or not I'm going to buy the boat?

Hoping for a grand or under. . .

[old frog]

Originally Posted by tmccaffery

I am preparing to take possession of my boat (Leopard 40) that is in the Moorings Bahamas charter fleet. Part of the process permits me to have my own surveyor survey the boat both for off-hire and insurance purposes and I absolutely intend to do so.

The OP owns the boat. It is an "off hire" survey, or a survey to determine & document its condition prior too its care, custody & control is transferred to him. Given his boats' value, complexity, caribbean charter service, etc., his approach appears very prudent.

Is the same concern needed for the acquisition/pre-purchase survey? It all depends. While the gasoline fueled Atomic 4 may be represented to have "good maintenance / repair receipts, starts right up and works well in the sea trial", there are parts of the its', & the boat's, fuel system that will be, or should be, looked at by both the general & mechanical surveyor. While it might run fine, the prevention of a fuel related incident & resulting claims might suggest otherwise.

It all depends.

[roland stockham]

John61 at 5K you get a mate to go with you same as you would buying an old car! Then pay the min possible for the insurance survey if you are even bothering with it or can get it. Bit different if the boat is worth the price of a respectable house.

[john61ct]

My "mates" are scattered around the world.

A couple near here, but no clues wrt boats or cars, need to pay a pro to inspect in both cases.

Insurance is not a concern, nothing to do with why I need a survey.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by old frog

While the gasoline fueled Atomic 4 may be represented to have "good maintenance / repair receipts, starts right up and works well in the sea trial", there are parts of the its', & the boat's, fuel system that will be, or should be, looked at by both the general & mechanical surveyor. While it might run fine, the prevention of a fuel related incident & resulting claims might suggest otherwise.

In my case, only buying now to trailer to the back yard and begin fixing her up to launch in 3-4 years when more money will be available.

_____
Immediate need is just "Buy this or Not?"

Hull, keel and decks, structural stuff, mast maybe sails, winches other expensive rigging.

Not a fixed price full report, just costs + time, with me present, stop as soon as a major misrepresentation / dealbreaker is found.

Is there more "standard terminology" for me to use for this kind of survey when calling around next time I see a "miracle bargain" in Virginia, Florida, Texas, or Michigan?

[roland stockham]

You could have a chat at the local boatyard (not the one where the boat is!!) and see if someone like the yard foreman will give it a once over? A 'surveyor' has to have insurance etc and prepare a report all of which cost plus they do this for a living. An experienced yard man can probably give you all you need to know but you can't sue him if it's wrong! May do it after work for cash which will be even cheaper. Most good surveyors learned their skills working in boatyards after all.

[john61ct]

Great idea!

Might require a lot of additional looking / asking time in that location.

I don't mind spending the money, ideally am hoping to make some calls and have someone at least lined up primed to go asap before I even get to the area.

So far, all the ones I've been considering are in the water, so would also need to pay for the haulout - can't skip that for the hull, right?

ideally right onto the trailer so if it's a go, at least I'd only pay for that once.

I fully realize that the boat purchase price will be less than half the total involved in getting her home.