The changing face of cruising in the Med.

[Wrong]

Cool!

The ignore feature really works!

[weavis]

My intention was to highlight the restriction that will be placed on cruisers if escalation of tension between the East and the West continue. There is no blend of the fundamentalistic attitudes of Islam and Capitalism. Once, I would have said Christianity, but that belief has been eroded to a great extent.

I have no answers. My projected hypothesis is based on piecing together reports from many sources, both online and from personal contact with medical and military personnel. Africa and its countries will be difficult to visit. Turkey and Arab countries will be difficult to visit. Each Western country will have issues with fundamentalstic groups with a Moslem belief.......wait! thats already happening.

The world is a changing one and each day brings a new paradigm to deal with. If Greece exits Europe, then Russia may become their banker and subsequent military presence in the Islands. Who knows, no one is saying.

We will not have to wait a long time to see the politicians game, but we might never know the true reason for its direction.

I am coming to love the TAG 60 a lot.

[Saleen411]

Originally Posted by Polux

The conclusion regarding the last year's intended crash of airplanes support what I have said and this one, looking at the evidences that we have now, seem to confirm that tendency, meaning that the last intended crashed airplanes were more due to pilots's mental problems then to terrorist attacks but then you don't care about facts so... you can conclude what you want.

There have been a total of 5 intentional crashes since 1994....

Royal Air Maroc 630.....1994

SilkAir 185...........1997

Air Botswana ?...... 1999

Egypt Air 990........1999

Mozambique 470......2013

Granted, the Malaysia 370 flt is mysterious, but no verifiable facts to date.

The 911 flights don't count as they were flown by hijacking terrorists.

I can tell you that US carriers have a 2 person rule.

Back on subject.....

[hellosailor]

Shamelessly going back ON topic...

Dunno, Weavis.

I can't see terrorists going out after individual cruisers, that's just too much effort to grab two or four westerners at a time.

Going after cruise liners...Achille Lauro comes to mind, even if I can't recall how to spell it. That didn't work out so well. Takes a lot of jihadis to keep an eye on 3000 passengers and 1500 crew, and some of the cruise lines started carrying Sikh's (armed with blades rather than guns) and other non-obvious security teams.

There are so many "better" larger soft targets, the only wonder (or blessing) has been that the jihadis are basically clever morons. Like roaches, they keep coming back single-mindedly. But fortunately they have not had any dedicated students of military history and tactics (like Ho Chi Min or Mao Tse Tung) much less any trained military geniuses like Rommel or Patton.

Yes, it is remarkable that "the west" continues to find other cheeks to turn. And despite all the chest-thumping and self-pity, folks forget that in NY on 9/11 the casualty toll was probably only 5% of what it would have been from a proper attack, 10% of what a simply better attack on the WTC would have been. IOW, over a 90% failure by the jihadis, on their largest effort.

Bottom line? If westerners and their governments are willing to keep accepting losses and ignoring history, well...I suppose that has a good side, tourism in Scotland and Norway will be up, eh?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Shamelessly going back ON topic...

Dunno, Weavis.

I can't see terrorists going out after individual cruisers, that's just too much effort to grab two or four westerners at a time.

Going after cruise liners...Achille Lauro comes to mind, even if I can't recall how to spell it. That didn't work out so well. Takes a lot of jihadis to keep an eye on 3000 passengers and 1500 crew, and some of the cruise lines started carrying Sikh's (armed with blades rather than guns) and other non-obvious security teams.

There are so many "better" larger soft targets, the only wonder (or blessing) has been that the jihadis are basically clever morons. Like roaches, they keep coming back single-mindedly. But fortunately they have not had any dedicated students of military history and tactics (like Ho Chi Min or Mao Tse Tung) much less any trained military geniuses like Rommel or Patton.

Yes, it is remarkable that "the west" continues to find other cheeks to turn. And despite all the chest-thumping and self-pity, folks forget that in NY on 9/11 the casualty toll was probably only 5% of what it would have been from a proper attack, 10% of what a simply better attack on the WTC would have been. IOW, over a 90% failure by the jihadis, on their largest effort.

Bottom line? If westerners and their governments are willing to keep accepting losses and ignoring history, well...I suppose that has a good side, tourism in Scotland and Norway will be up, eh?

Hmm. You do know that the countries that pay ransom will cough up millions for one or two people? Even if your premise is right, and targets are cruise liners, would you risk sailing in a known kidnap area? Your insurance company will not let you

Terrorism works because of fear generated. If Im scared, Im not going.

I can almost guarantee if I decided to, the day I go they might just be bored and take a little old catamaran for something to do...

It doesnt matter. I will keep way offshore in areas Im not comfortable with, and wave at the nice warships as they patrol up and down.....

those of you who have done the dash in pirate waters know the anxiety it produces and the extra watchful eye and the finger near the button to call for help.

The African coastal countries need to sort out their issues before they no longer have a choice and lose tourism and visitors for good. EVEN if its not as bad as it could be, Western advisories will destroy trust in safety. After all, the USA and Europe are looking out for your welfare.......

Gorgeous!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYzX4wxOWbk

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by weavis

My intention was to highlight the restriction that will be placed on cruisers if escalation of tension between the East and the West continue.

Is it really about East/West tension or issues internal to the predominately Muslim environment and conflict between the various ethnic, tribal and sectarian groups therein?

There is no blend of the fundamentalistic attitudes of Islam and Capitalism. Once, I would have said Christianity, but that belief has been eroded to a great extent.

No. Islam is very much a capitalist oriented religion. The profit motive is alive and well. Fundamentalism is not present in every version of Islam. In fact conflict between different groups of Muslims is a consequence of different interpretations of the Koran and how they wish to be governed.

I have no answers.

Welcome to the club...

My projected hypothesis is based on piecing together reports from many sources, both online and from personal contact with medical and military personnel. Africa and its countries will be difficult to visit. Turkey and Arab countries will be difficult to visit. Each Western country will have issues with fundamentalstic groups with a Moslem belief.......wait! thats already happening.

EVERYWHERE there are fundamentalists, whether Christian, Islamists or of any other stripe people will face myopic, reactionary 'them and us' attitudes and beliefs.

The world is a changing one and each day brings a new paradigm to deal with. If Greece exits Europe, then Russia may become their banker and subsequent military presence in the Islands. Who knows, no one is saying.

Good hedging your bets on the matter of Greece. There are other possible outcomes...

I've seen lots of posts lately suggesting most current events can be explained in terms of East against West. My view is it's not so simple as that. The internal state of affairs in Middle Eastern countries has existed ever since Islam evolved from Christianity, sharing much of the same dogma but shifting it's center away from Jesus onto Muhammad.

For an illuminating, easy to digest introduction to conflict and its origins in the Middle East, I can recommend James Michener's 'The Source'
.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Is it really about East/West tension or issues internal to the predominately Muslim environment and conflict between the various ethnic, tribal and sectarian groups therein?
.

Its about not being able to sail in coastal waters as a Westerner. In all truth, I dont give a frap as to why, there is nothing I can do to resolve it, and as a westerner am not welcome to try. I will just be advised to steer clear.

When I say I have no answers, its exactly that. There has been a line around Africa for a long time and as the problems surface and Africa becomes more Islamic........ the West is not welcome. I am not welcome.

Still, look on the bright side. A TAG 60 powering at 17 knots 100 miles offshore is not to be sneezed at!

[hellosailor]

"Hmm. You do know that the countries that pay ransom will cough up millions for one or two people?"
Well, in theory, my government doesn't pay ransom but is obligated to un-mothball a battleship or two and come rescue documented vessels with the "full faith and power" of the USN. OK, now, stop guffawing. the ghost of Teddy Roosevelt is getting upset.
But that's not so much a concern for me, as I have little interest in going where the locals don't want me, where the revolutionaries and juntas and pestilence and disease all make more than my insurer upset.
Forget terrorism, that is exported all over. That's just one more in the list.

African coastal countries, and the many others that are jihadi hotbeds, will have three options. Self-destruct, as the rest of the world let's them hang in the wind and starve while they kill each other. Or, finally piss off the rest of the world (seems to take a lot these days, 9/11 didn't even do it) until someone does what Carter was urging to do, i.e. "Nuke Iran". Make a couple of big glass lakes, and the survivors tend to leave you alone for a whole. They may not love you, but as Francis Bacon said, if you hit a mule with a stick, he may not love you, but he will pay attention to you. And then of course there's option #3, they'll just conquer the world. Such a shame they aren't allowed or encourage to watch "Pinky and the Brain" to get a bigger grasp of what's involved with that one.(G)


See those parts of the world? We're so lucky now. We can watch them safely on TV and the web, we don't have to drool over National Geographic and say "someday...".
(Yes, that might be sarcasm, too.)


I keep thinking back to Lawrence and his comments about the Arab tribes never coming to anything if they kept on squabbling. Or, to Kipling, and "White Man's Burden" and how that came back to bite the Empire. Who would have thought the same issues would stick around so long?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I keep thinking back to Lawrence and his comments about the Arab tribes never coming to anything if they kept on squabbling. Or, to Kipling, and "White Man's Burden" and how that came back to bite the Empire. Who would have thought the same issues would stick around so long?

Its just people.
Man has freedom to do whatever he wants and many exercise that right to the detriment of others.

Personally, I will miss the Eastern culture a lot. For that will be taken from me by force and for being a non Moslem.

Sux.

But for Eastern recipes, there is YouTube!

[FilBrown]

Tunisians are horrified at what happened in their country. They are one of the few stable political and financial countries in the area.
It should been seen as a similar kind of home grown terrorist attack as happened in the US and London.
Way to much scaremongering and paranoia going on here.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by FilBrown

Tunisians are horrified at what happened in their country. They are one of the few stable political and financial countries in the area.
It should been seen as a similar kind of home grown terrorist attack as happened in the US and London.
Way to much scaremongering and paranoia going on here.

LOL

What 'should' be seen is that Tunisia actually defeats the 'home grown' terrorists and do not let them take over the country.

Other than that, the West will issue advisories that its not a safe place to visit. Thats how it works in politics.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Saleen411

There have been a total of 5 intentional crashes since 1994....

Royal Air Maroc 630.....1994

SilkAir 185...........1997

Air Botswana ?...... 1999

Egypt Air 990........1999

Mozambique 470......2013

Granted, the Malaysia 370 flt is mysterious, but no verifiable facts to date.

The 911 flights don't count as they were flown by hijacking terrorists.

.....

Yes those aircrafts were crashed deliberately by the pilots with suicidal intentions and I believe the Malaysia 370 leaves very few doubts about that. You have to join to those German-wings flight.

Since the late 90's the only civil airliners crashed by terrorists were the 4 from the 11/9 a 1998 and the Lionair 602 flight allegedly brought down by the Tamil Rebels (some doubts about that).

No doubt that the number of airliners brought down intentionally by one of their pilots in suicide attempts is bigger then the ones brought down by terrorists, as I had said previously.

[zeehag]

rodl and they think mexico is dangerous~~~ gimme a break..... we will all be finding shelter in mexican waters by the time our water world explodes in sh*(^*%(#)*&IPP&^$@$&~~~silly me. cannot typo

[Polux]

Originally Posted by FilBrown

Tunisians are horrified at what happened in their country. They are one of the few stable political and financial countries in the area.
It should been seen as a similar kind of home grown terrorist attack as happened in the US and London.
Way to much scaremongering and paranoia going on here.

I agree regarding Tunisia. Not different from terrorist attacks in Europe and on the States. Yes the terrorists were Tunisians, but the ones that attacked Charlie Hebdo were French and many that made terrorist attacks on the UK were British. Only on the UK since 2000 there has been 13 terrorist attacks.

Terrorist attacks is something we have to live with and the worst thing we can do is fear them or have a paranoia attitude regarding their potential destructiveness or effectiveness in spreading terror.

[weavis]

All said and done, still headed for Mallorca. Still wanting to live there or mainland Spain.
Will make sure that the cat I get will have beam to make it through the French Canals......