The ins and outs of mainsail in-mast furling

[Happ]

Originally Posted by KayZee

You're saying to be mindful of which tack we're on before furling?


Kurt

That is correct. It is not obvious until you think about it. Once you look at it you’ll see it is obvious. It never dawned on me until someone pointed it out to me.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by KayZee

Like the pun? Ins AND outs. Get it?

I have an offer in on a Wauquiez 41ps. It has a furling main. Given the choice, I would not choose it. I would want the performance back especially given the already low SA/D. The admiral LOVES the idea of no mainsail cover and not even having to go up top to pretty up the sail before zipping the stackpack. I get it; we ARE in our sixties and less effort sailing IS becoming a priority. The boat hits SO many of our other check marks that the in mast is not a deal killer. I've got two owners on my dock who adore theirs.

So, what should I know? At the moment I don't know what system is on there but it does have the grooved drum.

infinite reefing is not a bad idea. Can it be reefed when the wind is not dead ahead?

Years ago, when the Hood was about the only system, a rigger told me NEVER to use the powered winch to furl because without the feedback of increasing friction it was too easy to pull in a jam that you would never get out until back in port. Is this fully true today?

Anything else except snark will be apprecitated. Thanks. Kurt

I was sailing across the Strait of Juan de Fuca (WA) alongside a boat with in-mast furling. We were about half way when the wind died. I must admit that watching the other boat bring in his mainsail, start engine and quickly continue was interesting. I was a bit envious as I started the engine, turned into the dieing wind, raised my lazy jacks, lowered the mainsail, and tied it down.

I'm not against progress but every additional system that makes a task easier has its downside starting with one more thing that needs maintenance and it always seems to be more expensive to begin with.

Likewise, much depends on what kind of sailing you are doing, where, and your bankroll. I suspect for those that only sail local waters and in moderate winds it would be a nice feature to have. But for those that venture offshore or on a passage with the possibility, even remotely, of having to cut away the sail it doesn't sound a wise choice to me...I'm a KISS kind of guy on a budget.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by KayZee

You're saying to be mindful of which tack we're on before furling?


Kurt

Its not critical, just makes life easier to furl by hand in our case. We have a winch but rarely use it.

Pete

[Redline452]

Our SO45.2 has in-mast furling and I appreciate it, especially when single-handing. I can (and often do) furl off the wind, at times even motoring downwind returning to our club (narrow channel). Like most tools, you have to learn how (and not) to use it, and accept that you may occasionally foul up.



On a previous boat I tore a conventional main while hoisting it when I forgot to sufficiently loosen the reefing lines - my bad (the sailmaker's exactc words when I told him what happened were "I'm ashamed of you"). You can mess anything up!


I've also taken to storing the sail over the winter in the mast (I call it my long aluminum sailbag) by furling it a little tighter and carefully feeding *all* of it except the leech block into the mast. It's protected and doesn't get any creases as it would folded and stuffed in a bag.


Let the boom rise up a bit, keep some tension on the outhaul when furling and watch what's happening. Like an autopilot, electric windlass and refrigeration, it makes sailing easier, especially short- or single-handed.

[merrydolphin]

What are you doing with the boat serious racing? Or very serious off shore long distance cruising? If not, I wouldn’t let it stop me. I have used them a lot and yes, you can have the occasional hang up. And for the most part not power winching roller furling is a good idea but depends on the rig.

[lo2jones]

Operating a vessel of any size with limited crew of inexperienced crew, rollerfurling main can solve a lot of problems. The newer material is thinner and stronger than bygone days and is not stupid proof, but problems are fewer. I’ve been out-sailed by a boat of students with a standard main, we had furling main. It was either my superior teaching stills or the standard main that allowed them to beat us.

[Andy Lange]

Hi Kurt,

The benefits and drawbacks have been illustrated and explained here in this thread, so I want to give you another point to consider.
You said that the boat you are looking at checks many other points and you see the furler mast as the only point that keeps you from putting an offer in. You also state that you and your Admiral are in your 60s.

A furler system is very handy when single- or shorthanding a boat, which I believe you are planning to do.

You can furl them inn even if you're not pointing into the wind if there isn't much pressure on the sail, just make sure you center the sail with the main (not too tight).
If properly maintained and taken care off, there shouldn't be any issue with the system.
There's no reason to leave the cockpit, which is quite nice when the weather pipes up.

I have now had my (5th) boat for 2 years, which uses an in-mast furling system. I'm always short-handed, sometimes single handing her on rather long passages.
I have sailed my boat half way around the globe from Greece to French Polynesia, where I'm currently at and have never had any issues whatsoever.

It is a compromise, as you'll get better performance from a fully battened mainsail, that's true. Just ask yourself if you need an additional knot of speed or not? I presume you want to go cruising, not racing?

Have you already sailed the boat you are looking at?
Propably a good idea to try the entire system on a sea trial and see how you and the Admiral actually like it?

If I were you and the boat meets all other aspects, I'd most likely go for it after a successful sea trial.

Happy sailing.

Cheers,

Andy
#oceansproject

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Happ

Besides the possibility or should I say inevitably they will jam but can be unjammed their is one thing to remember. Every Roller Furling main furls in one direction. If you furl it the wrong way you will be dragging the main along the edge of mast. This will dramatically shorten the life of the main.

There is no inevitably when handled correctly they will jam

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by Andy Lange

Hi Kurt,

The benefits and drawbacks have been illustrated and explained here in this thread, so I want to give you another point to consider.
You said that the boat you are looking at checks many other points and you see the furler mast as the only point that keeps you from putting an offer in. You also state that you and your Admiral are in your 60s.

(snip)

If I were you and the boat meets all other aspects, I'd most likely go for it after a successful sea trial.

Happy sailing.

Cheers,

Andy
#oceansproject

I very much appreciate your balanced viewpoint. The offer is already in and the haul and sea trial is this Weds. There are backup offers behind us (according to the broker). We put our check where our mouths were and the boat is ours to accept, renogitiate or reject based on the survey sea trial contingency.


This thread has got longer than I ever imagined and I realize I have never listed the check points that I keep mentioning. The boat is a 2006 Wauquiez 41PS. It's replacing a 1984 Islander Bahama 30 that was our reintroduction to sailing after about 25 years of raising kids and business stuff. We've had the Islander about 4 years.


Check marks,


*Larger and more offshore capable but not so big that wont be pretty easy for two getting older people to manage both while sailing and keeping the boat up.
*A VIEW from the salon. This is big for me.
*Affordable (under 200k)
*Two real beds for 2 middle aged couples without sleeping on top of eachother. I wasn't looking for 2 heads but okay.
*Even though I'm a misanthrope by nature, it turns out I really like taking people daysailing and introducing them to the experience. So a cockpit that wasn't/isn't too crowded with 4-5 people.
*Nav station that serves as a watch keepers station with a MFD repeater.
*Older, but not as old as what I have now electronics package including AIS and autopilot.
*Boat already has an upgraded fridge and freeze. This second officer LIKES a little ice in his hook down whiskey.
*A Fisher Panda generator. This second officer LIKES using autopilot as much as he wants without starting the main motor while still having ice for his hook down whisky
*bow thruster. Here in SoCal, marinas are tight and gas docks busy.
*1000 ah of not very old AGM. Right now I live on 100 which as I'm sure most of you know means about 50 usable ah. See above about autopilot.
*Running rigging was renewed last year.
*Dodger is less than 2 years old.


Not all is perfect. There are some concerns. Whether or not they are supportable will only be reavealed after we've lived with the boat for a while both at dock and on the hook.

*Odd Layout to get the pilot salon. We may miss the conviviality or facing settees.
*More/steeper companionway steps than most people seem to want these day along with several places where you have to step up or down tomove around the belowdecks spaces.

*Some (potential) headknockers as you move around the boat
*Standing rigging is original so I know what the surveyor will say. The boat has not gone offshore, only around our local channel Islands in fair weather. A pre-purchase rig survey is already scheduled.
*Dodger is wide to cover cockpit seats but set low and sleek. It's a bit of a stoop to go under it at the same time you have to go over a bridge deck that provides room for the double aft cabin.
*Potential low performance based on IM furling and a SA of 14.


Our plans are not that grand but rather to be more comfortable while sailing locally with maybe a season in the Sea of Cortez with an option to return home via Hawaii and or the Pacific NW.

To find so much of what we want in our next boat, I've put aside my qualms about IM furling. The rest is simply compromises. Our solace is that because it's a rare boat, it should be an easy sale if we find we can't live with some part of the experience.


May the surveyor not find some odious thing to squash the sale. I don't expect the seller to make much compromise at this price. He's like to just move on to the next offer. If that happens. Okay. I like my B30 and it suits us just fine for the right now even if it's not our boat for the future.



Kurt

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is no inevitably when handled correctly they will jam

This is unclear.


A. Even when handled correctly they will jam anyway?


B. When handled correctly it's not invevitable they will jam?


thanks,


Kurt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by KayZee

I very much appreciate your balanced viewpoint. The offer is already in and the haul and sea trial is this Weds. There are backup offers behind us (according to the broker). We put our check where our mouths were and the boat is ours to accept, renogitiate or reject based on the survey sea trial contingency.


This thread has got longer than I ever imagined and I realize I have never listed the check points that I keep mentioning. The boat is a 2006 Wauquiez 41PS. It's replacing a 1984 Islander Bahama 30 that was our reintroduction to sailing after about 25 years of raising kids and business stuff. We've had the Islander about 4 years.


Check marks,


*Larger and more offshore capable but not so big that wont be pretty easy for two getting older people to manage both while sailing and keeping the boat up.
*A VIEW from the salon. This is big for me.
*Affordable (under 200k)
*Two real beds for 2 middle aged couples without sleeping on top of eachother. I wasn't looking for 2 heads but okay.
*Even though I'm a misanthrope by nature, it turns out I really like taking people daysailing and introducing them to the experience. So a cockpit that wasn't/isn't too crowded with 4-5 people.
*Nav station that serves as a watch keepers station with a MFD repeater.
*Older, but not as old as what I have now electronics package including AIS and autopilot.
*Boat already has an upgraded fridge and freeze. This second officer LIKES a little ice in his hook down whiskey.
*A Fisher Panda generator. This second officer LIKES using autopilot as much as he wants without starting the main motor while still having ice for his hook down whisky
*bow thruster. Here in SoCal, marinas are tight and gas docks busy.
*1000 ah of not very old AGM. Right now I live on 100 which as I'm sure most of you know means about 50 usable ah. See above about autopilot.
*Running rigging was renewed last year.
*Dodger is less than 2 years old.


Not all is perfect. There are some concerns. Whether or not they are supportable will only be reavealed after we've lived with the boat for a while both at dock and on the hook.

*Odd Layout to get the pilot salon. We may miss the conviviality or facing settees.
*More/steeper companionway steps than most people seem to want these day along with several places where you have to step up or down tomove around the belowdecks spaces.

*Some (potential) headknockers as you move around the boat
*Standing rigging is original so I know what the surveyor will say. The boat has not gone offshore, only around our local channel Islands in fair weather. A pre-purchase rig survey is already scheduled.
*Dodger is wide to cover cockpit seats but set low and sleek. It's a bit of a stoop to go under it at the same time you have to go over a bridge deck that provides room for the double aft cabin.
*Potential low performance based on IM furling and a SA of 14.


Our plans are not that grand but rather to be more comfortable while sailing locally with maybe a season in the Sea of Cortez with an option to return home via Hawaii and or the Pacific NW.

To find so much of what we want in our next boat, I've put aside my qualms about IM furling. The rest is simply compromises. Our solace is that because it's a rare boat, it should be an easy sale if we find we can't live with some part of the experience.


May the surveyor not find some odious thing to squash the sale. I don't expect the seller to make much compromise at this price. He's like to just move on to the next offer. If that happens. Okay. I like my B30 and it suits us just fine for the right now even if it's not our boat for the future.



Kurt

Sounds like a good boat. I was interested to see from your list that I shared at least 50 - 60 % of your priorities in a boat too.

Regarding your original question, the in-mast furling, I subscribed to this thread as the project boat I just bought has in-mast furling and I also had my doubts. I think, from the responses you received, I am less concerned than I had been originally. Thank you for asking the question.

[capn_billl]

I have a friend with in mast furlong.

The only time he had trouble was with an old mainsail that had a pot belly.

A newer flatter mainsail fixed the problem permanently.

[s/v Jedi]

Sail shape, easy handling. This is a 78’ boat that is easier to sail single handed than a 30’ sloop.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Sail shape, easy handling. This is a 78’ boat that is easier to sail single handed than a 30’ sloop.

Beowulf.


I'd take that.


Beowulf was for sale recently, but the asking price was ridiculous, millions, so I didn't even bother calling.

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Sail shape, easy handling. This is a 78’ boat that is easier to sail single handed than a 30’ sloop.

I'm not sure how this helps me but I guess you made some kind of point. I'm not sure if it's Beowulf but a Dashew boat that I was told was Steve and Linda's personal boat is docked near me here in Marina del Rey with a for sale sign on it.



I' not sure I would like Mr. Dashew but I like that he bucks the traditions and the hidebound in boat design.


Kurt