Tipping

[Wotname]

So queue jumping is for sale, something that is bought.
Tip big, get to go to the front.
Soon respect will be a commodity up for sale

[halesangel41]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

The minimum wage was supposed to provide a living wage, enough to raise a family, buy a home, what we used to call a middle class lifestyle.

The fact that it was not stringently indexed to consumer inflation, especially local housing costs is a war crime, oligarchs waging class warfare and winning with the assistance of a government taken over by the capitalists. Democrats very much included, not far from fascism these past 50-60 years.

Every citizen deserves as their birthright a dignified life, whether employed or not. And certainly those working over 30 hours a week even more so.

Minimum wage is an entry level job pay put in place to make you want to further your skill level and offer incentive to move on to bigger and better. I bet you first boat was a smaller more manageable more affordable boat til you made a better income to afford a larger boat. You would have to pay fast food workers 25$Hr to even come close to making a decent living imagine what fast food would cost then. With fuel prices and inflation as it is now from day to day a small business own would be bankrupt by weeks end.If you can afford to share by all means share . If you tip someone it lets them know you appreciate them . Just my 2 cents

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Dockhand’s note to self: definitely help all power boats to fuel up first. Then maybe if there is time or space let some cheap sailboat in to fuel up their $100 tank and stiff you on the tip too. Do the absolute minimum for them.


And we wonder why we aren’t as well received as other boats at the marinas and fuel docks. Why we have to wait.

I mentioned several pages ago (wow, we're really going at it in this thread), that I don't usually tip, as that doesn't seem to be the custom at my local marina. That said, I've often tipped at other marinas where that does seem to be the custom.

In both scenarios, I have NEVER been treated badly at a dock by a dockhand for any reason. I have NEVER received anything less than stellar service. There have occasionally been dockhands who offer assistance handling lines, and then don't know what they are doing and lead me to a bumpy docking, but that is just a lack of expertise, not a consciously reduced level of service.

EVERY dock hand I have ever interacted with has been kind, polite, helpful, and prompt. I have NEVER been made to wait for a power boat, even when sharing a dock with large mega yachts. And according to you, I am the definition of cheap, since I usually do not provide a tip, and if I do provide a tip it is $5-$10, much less than a large power boat tipping 15% of their fuel purchase.

Your premise that we sailors are not as well received at docks and marinas simply does not match my experience anywhere that I have cruised, which has been the entirety of the US East Coast, including places like Long Island Sound where things are wildly more expensive in general than my home marina.

Just yesterday, I visited a dock simply to pick up a crew member for a day sail. I radioed the marina and requested to stop briefly on their face dock. They graciously allowed me to use it even though I did not plan to purchase anything. They asked if I wanted a dock hand to help with lines, but I said no - my crew on the dock would take care of it. When I approached the dock, a dockhand happened to be passing by after helping another boat, and quickly stepped up to take a line anyway. I then made a foolish decision, badly misjudging the current, and had to bail out off the dock after the first line was already on. The kind dockhanad was very on the ball and helpful as I recovered my line and spun around for a second attempt. I considered her help recovering from my stupidity, as well as the fact that she assisted at all when I had told the dock I didn't need her, to be above and beyond expectation. Therefore, I tipped her, which I'm sure she did not expect. The point is, I was treated very well by a busy marina that serves mega yachts, despite being a "cheap" sailboat that had made it clear I wouldn't be spending any money at the dock.

My biggest takeaway from this whole thread is that the tipping custom at docks and marinas is not nearly as standardized or consistent as most of us think it is. We have lots of people here posting that tipping at docks (in the US and Canada seems to be most of the discussion) is a necessity, and we have lots of people saying that it is not the usual practice to tip at all. Clearly, the practice is inconsistent. That leaves us with the somewhat challenging requirement to determine at each dock we visit whether tipping is expected. Part of that determination, in my mind as well as at least some of the other posters in this thread, is also about whether the dock hands are being paid properly. This is of course very difficult to know when you sail into an unfamiliar port and just need some fuel. It would be much nicer if I could be confident that the businesses I patronize are treating and paying their employees well.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Wotname

So queue jumping is for sale, something that is bought.
Tip big, get to go to the front.
Soon respect will be a commodity up for sale

Of course, we are from different places. Your perception on this won’t be the same as mine. But yes. That’s exactly how it works in my area.

You can tip your way into anything actually. You can cut lines, bend or break rules, and yes, respect is a commodity up for sale. Tipping can achieve all of that. And more.

But that’s not really the kind of tip I’m talking about. I’m talking about standard, customary tips that we have at Marina fuel docks. You are supposed to tip the dockhands here. You are also supposed to tip your doorman pretty big at Christmas when you live in New York City. There are a lot of tips that you have to make. And your doorman will do a bad job with your packages and not really be as friendly if you stiff him at Christmas.

In the case of the dockhands, they will definitely allow the people who tipped them to come in first. Wouldn’t you? Everybody’s working to make money. you want to maximize the money you make while you are working. So you let people who aren’t cheap to the front of the line. That’s just human nature. And from the deck of our boat, you are helping college kids and what
not to have a nice summer job. You are giving them a little bit more than the standard summer job wage. Making their day just a little bit brighter.

But of course, this is completely geographical and cultural. In my area, tipping is basically mandatory. If you don’t, you’re a big jerk. Especially if you’re rich enough to own a boat. That’s a luxury item. As much as we like to think we don’t have any money, we’re doing better than most people. To not tip when you have a luxury item like that is pretty much a travesty over here. I realize it’s different everywhere else.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Allied39

You are not supposed be forty and living on minimum wage....if you are....you have bigger problems than how much you get paid.

Wow. Entitled much?

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by Chotu

In my area, tipping is basically mandatory. If you don’t, you’re a big jerk. Especially if you’re rich enough to own a boat. That’s a luxury item. As much as we like to think we don’t have any money, we’re doing better than most people. To not tip when you have a luxury item like that is pretty much a travesty over here. I realize it’s different everywhere else.

My "Luxury Item" cost around 20% of what a "Starter House" might have cost - similar to a down payment on that house. What I pay in slip fees and ongoing maintenance is about half of what rent around here would be for a studio apartment. Overall, I'm saving >$10k/yr compared to the local dock hand by owning a luxury item that I must be rich to have.

I'm not sure if that's an argument for tipping, since my expenses are low, meaning I can afford to tip. Or maybe it's an argument against tipping since my actual income at the moment comes out to about $18/hr, barely more than the $15/hr that is often discussed as an appropriate update for the minimum wage...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by halesangel41

Minimum wage is an entry level job pay put in place to make you want to further your skill level and offer incentive to move on to bigger and better. I bet you first boat was a smaller more manageable more affordable boat til you made a better income to afford a larger boat. You would have to pay fast food workers 25$Hr to even come close to making a decent living imagine what fast food would cost then. With fuel prices and inflation as it is now from day to day a small business own would be bankrupt by weeks end.If you can afford to share by all means share . If you tip someone it lets them know you appreciate them . Just my 2 cents

In Australia the minimum wage was originally (1907) the minimum required 'for a married man with two children to live in frugal comfort.'

Currently set at $20.33 ( Australian) per hour for adults the rate for a 17yo is 60% of that or $12.20.

Q??. In the US do you tip at Maccas?.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Of course, we are from different places. Your perception on this won’t be the same as mine. But yes. That’s exactly how it works in my area.

You can tip your way into anything actually. You can cut lines, bend or break rules, and yes, respect is a commodity up for sale. Tipping can achieve all of that. And more.

But that’s not really the kind of tip I’m talking about. I’m talking about standard, customary tips that we have at Marina fuel docks. You are supposed to tip the dockhands here. You are also supposed to tip your doorman pretty big at Christmas when you live in New York City. There are a lot of tips that you have to make. And your doorman will do a bad job with your packages and not really be as friendly if you stiff him at Christmas.

In the case of the dockhands, they will definitely allow the people who tipped them to come in first. Wouldn’t you? Everybody’s working to make money. you want to maximize the money you make while you are working. So you let people who aren’t cheap to the front of the line. That’s just human nature. And from the deck of our boat, you are helping college kids and what
not to have a nice summer job. You are giving them a little bit more than the standard summer job wage. Making their day just a little bit brighter.

But of course, this is completely geographical and cultural. In my area, tipping is basically mandatory. If you don’t, you’re a big jerk. Especially if you’re rich enough to own a boat. That’s a luxury item. As much as we like to think we don’t have any money, we’re doing better than most people. To not tip when you have a luxury item like that is pretty much a travesty over here. I realize it’s different everywhere else.

I get it and when (if) I visit, I'll do in Rome what what the Romans do...
I won't stay long, just long enough to say hello as I much prefer the company of those who live in more egalitarian societies and I tend to vote with my feet.

Thanks for the fuller description of the mindset in your area.

[El Pinguino]

Another question vaguely related to this thread.

We used to have actors and actresses - we now have just actors.

We no longer have waiters and waitresses so why don't we just have waiters?

Who on earth dreamt up the word 'waitstaff'.

[Wotname]

^^ A wokeperson - maybe??

[sailingharry]

I don't tip. I begrudgingly tip at restaurants. Osprey covered most of it.


The worst tips are the ones for a service I don't want. I want to do my own pumpout. I want to pump my own fuel. I want to park my own car, move my own luggage, open my own door. And I certainly don't want to tip for someone doing something I'd rather do myself!



The big problem, in general, is that I feel a particular job should receive a commensurate wage. Until I know what the person's wage is, including typical annual tips (as properly recorded, not as fraudulently reported on their taxes), how on earth can I determine if they "should" be tipped?


And in a restaurant, why should what I pay a waiter be more if I order sirloin with 3 mixed drinks and a desert, than if I order pasta with a bottomless iced tea?


When it comes to a waiter, why should their hourly wage be 3 times my final working wage -- when I had a 4 year college degree, a masters, a state license (that has a pass rate around 60%), and 40 years of progressively more responsible experience? Sure, they typically work fewer hours, but if I could have cut my 40 hour week to 15 hours and made the same annual wage, I'd have done it in a heartbeat!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Of course, we are from different places. Your perception on this won’t be the same as mine. But yes. That’s exactly how it works in my area.

You can tip your way into anything actually. You can cut lines, bend or break rules, and yes, respect is a commodity up for sale. Tipping can achieve all of that. And more.

But that’s not really the kind of tip I’m talking about. I’m talking about standard, customary tips that we have at Marina fuel docks. You are supposed to tip the dockhands here. You are also supposed to tip your doorman pretty big at Christmas when you live in New York City. There are a lot of tips that you have to make. And your doorman will do a bad job with your packages and not really be as friendly if you stiff him at Christmas.

In the case of the dockhands, they will definitely allow the people who tipped them to come in first. Wouldn’t you? Everybody’s working to make money. you want to maximize the money you make while you are working. So you let people who aren’t cheap to the front of the line. That’s just human nature. And from the deck of our boat, you are helping college kids and what
not to have a nice summer job. You are giving them a little bit more than the standard summer job wage. Making their day just a little bit brighter.

But of course, this is completely geographical and cultural. In my area, tipping is basically mandatory. If you don’t, you’re a big jerk. Especially if you’re rich enough to own a boat. That’s a luxury item. As much as we like to think we don’t have any money, we’re doing better than most people. To not tip when you have a luxury item like that is pretty much a travesty over here. I realize it’s different everywhere else.

If a tip is considered mandatory it’s no longer a tip. Can’t think of anywhere in the US where a tip is mandatory.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by smj

If a tip is considered mandatory it’s no longer a tip. Can’t think of anywhere in the US where a tip is mandatory.

Actually, in the US, it often is mandatory. Of course, semantics matter. If two sets of 4 people eat in a restaurant, and each have a $200 bill, they each tip $40 (the obligatory social custom). However, if those 8 people eat together, for a $400 bill, the "tip" is renamed a "gratuity" (I think -- maybe it is a "service charge?") and is a mandatory $80 charge on the bill. It is still normally 20%, although I think in more expensive places it goes up to 25%.


Of course, many don't read the bill, and leave a 20% tip on the $480 bill (the $400 plus the $80 tip that was already on there).

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Actually, in the US, it often is mandatory. Of course, semantics matter. If two sets of 4 people eat in a restaurant, and each have a $200 bill, they each tip $40 (the obligatory social custom). However, if those 8 people eat together, for a $400 bill, the "tip" is renamed a "gratuity" (I think -- maybe it is a "service charge?") and is a mandatory $80 charge on the bill. It is still normally 20%, although I think in more expensive places it goes up to 25%.


Of course, many don't read the bill, and leave a 20% tip on the $480 bill (the $400 plus the $80 tip that was already on there).

A restaurant can’t impose a mandatory tip in the US, they can impose a mandatory service charge and the service charge is property of the restaurant not the server, so no telling if the server gains from this. The service charge must be made clear to a customer before ordering, so in no way anything close to a mandatory tip.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by smj

A restaurant can’t impose a mandatory tip in the US, they can impose a mandatory service charge and the service charge is property of the restaurant not the server, so no telling if the server gains from this. The service charge must be made clear to a customer before ordering, so in no way anything close to a mandatory tip.

Oh, man, that just makes it messier and messier! I do hate the entire concept of tipping.


So, if I'm reading your comment right....


* When a restaurant prices a burger at $20, the "real" price is $24 because you are expected to tip 20%
* When you have a bigger crowd, the restaurant adds a 20% service charge (usually mentioned on the menu), which is normally perceived as a mandatory tip (I've heard it explained that in crowds, the tip is often "forgotten"). So that burger starts off at $24
* But if there is a service charge, the waiter doesn't get any extra money to make that "reasonable wage" so we are then expected by social custom to pay ANOTHER 20% (on the $20, or the $24?). So that $20 burger is now $28, or maybe $29?


Why don't they just list the price at $29. It's like tires, where the tire is $100 but the bill is $175.