Tipping

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Reminds me of the old joke, a lawyer hires a plumber to fix a minor leak. He finishes in 15 minutes and hands a bill of $180 to the lawyer. $18O! the Lawyer shouts, I'm a lawyer and I don't make $180 in 15 minutes. The plumber looks at him and says "Yeah, I didn't make that much when I was a lawyer either.

We sometimes get this in the hull cleaning industry too. Hey, if you don't like my rates, you're free to do it yourself.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tellie

...Tipping dock hands has been going on for many decades. Even when I was a teenager my dad always tipped something to dock hands.

Hopefully you've learned from this thread that while it may be common in your world, it is far from universal, even in the "land of the free." This is unlike other areas of the economy, notably restaurant serving staff, where faux-tipping is nearly universal (in the USA and Canada). And it's certainly not common in most of the rest of the world -- this is an international forum after all.

Originally Posted by Tellie

...get involved to change this evil practice.

Exactly . I see this thread as one small way to do just that. As I suggested earlier, a better response is to tip (because it's part of the wage of the worker), but inform the management you will be taking your business elsewhere until they pay their employees a living wage.

Note: I would never call it evil. Characterizing anything in simplistic binary terms like good/evil is rarely a way to have a fruitful discussion. Life is almost never so cut-and-dry (something I'm sure you're aware of Tellie).

[GrowleyMonster]

At our marina there is nobody to do stuff like that. You do it yourself. I rather like it that way except that there are idiots who don't flush the hose and leave the pump primed, and can't be bothered to call someone when it gets clogged up. But I do prefer to do my own pumping. Less mess on deck, nice empty and flushed out tank.

I agree that it would be better if there were no tipping, and everyone just did his or her job with the requisite level of dispatch, skill, conscientiousness, and professionalism. I worked my ass off my whole life and never got tips. I got the wages and bennies I signed up for, and that was it. And I paid the correct amount of taxes on same. HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is, that tipping is a thing, and if you don't, there are some workers who will deliberately jerk you around for being a cheap charlie. Low wage workers appreciate a good tip, and are more likely to deliver top notch service in the future. I think it is smart to tip in this situation, and $5 in the US or other first world economy is reasonable, even if it only took 15 minutes. $10 if you have deeper pockets. Got a $300k boat that doesn't have a single sail costing less than the dock boy makes in a year, and you can't afford to tip $10, while standing on your symbol of luxury and opulence? Shame on you. Got a $2k 70's sloop and work a low wage job yourself? I would tip $5. Share the love. That's like one gallon of diesel fuel.

[Mike OReilly]

And I really wish those on the pro-tip side would stop characterizing this as a "cheapskate" issue. Those of us who are trying to have a reasoned discussion about the practice have made it VERY CLEAR, this is not about ripping people off, or not wanting to pay. Exactly the opposite in fact. Of course, we can all afford a fiver. That's not the point*. So can we stop with the shame game, and actually look at the system of faux-tipping?

If you do -- and there's plenty of research literature on the subject -- you might come away with a different perspective. At the very least, one needs to understand the historic and systemic issues which this method of paying people comes out of, and what it promotes in our societies.

*And why does the same argument not apply to the owner of the business?

[sailingharry]

The one comment I keep seeing repeated is "management should pay them a fair wage." That leads to several questions.


* What is a "fair wage." This should be compared to other jobs, like the mechanic who patches your flat tire or changes your oil at the Quick Change, the garbage man, the guys who operate the sewage plant, the kid who brings the shopping carts in from the cold wet snowy parking lot, etc. And remember, most dock hands are marginally competent -- rare is one that knows where and how to place a spring line or can even put a line where I tell him to put it.

* What does management pay them, on the books?
* What is the typical hourly/daily tip amount they get?
* What is the delta left over, that I should consider making up?


If the dock hand *should" get $20/hour (really?), they are paid $15 (probably about right in my metropolitan DC area), and they pull in $100/day in tips -- well, you do the math on how much you should tip. Or, if you don't want to consider what others overtip, then the math is $15/hour + $1 per boat *5 boats per hour =$20/hour.



And while I tip in restaurants, I NEVER tip in cash -- it is ALWAYS on the CC, so they pay their income taxes just like every responsible citizen does.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Well, all of you anti-tippers are giving sailors a bad name. Because every power boat that comes through gives a percentage to the dock hand. You guys are gonna be the cause of us being treated poorly at the dock. Thanks a lot.

Unbelievable that we have so many cheap people on here. And this is a different kind of cheap than just saving money on your boat. This is a cheap that goes against your fellow human being.

People that work on the dock are paid a normal wage. It’s a summer job. For kids. Take a look at who hands you the fuel hose when you go to a dock. It’s typically a college kid. Or somebody just about to enter their first year of college. It’s also somebody who enjoys sailing. And they don’t have a boat yet. Many of them are the same people that race competitively in college. They race on 420s, things like that.

I don’t understand how people can put such negative vibes into their own communities. This is the next generation of people that will be sailing with us.

I’m truly surprised this forum is full of these outlooks. I thought we were the nicer people on the water.

I understand Canadians and the culture of non-tipping there. That’s just how it is. But the Canadians should also understand that we do have a culture of tipping here. So when in Rome.

Exactly. And somewhere there’s a thread started by a penny saving sailor about how mad he is that his marina is non-renewing his slip contract so they can move in more large powerboats.
To make frontline workers pay for one’s ideological feelings is just….. well I’ll stop there
If I pay $100-200 in tips all year in a busy cruising season that’s probably an overstatement. Compared to an annual cruising budget?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Exactly. And somewhere there’s a thread started by a penny saving sailor about how mad he is that his marina is non-renewing his slip contract so they can move in more large powerboats.
To make frontline workers pay for one’s ideological feelings is just….. well I’ll stop there
If I pay $100-200 in tips all year in a busy cruising season that’s probably an overstatement. Compared to an annual cruising budget?

With the numbers that have been thrown out, of $5-10 for a pumpout, and the same for fuel, you get out what, 10-15 times a year? It really adds up if you sail 100+ days a year. Even when I was working, I was out 20-30 weekends a year, although my pumpout is self-service (my idea of a good pumpout!).


The non-renewal wouldn't change if that sailor had left $20 tips for every pumpout - the marina looks at the receipts, not the tips for dockhands. Now, if the sailor sent tips to management for each pumpout, that might have made a difference.

[sv_pelagia]

I certainly agree with the "when in Rome" view, but it goes both ways!

OK, tip reasonably where it truly is the norm, but DON'T tip (or tip excessively) where it is NOT the norm!

Visitors tipping excessively where it is not the norm tend to ruin it for the locals. Operators start expecting tips even when not the norm locally.

This is a real issue in many popular tourist spots.

Case in point: I'm a regular Nepal trekker (15 times) -- before covid-19[emoji53] -- where tradionally, guides/porters are given a tip of approximately 15% of their personal salary - - but 15% is the total from all members of the group combined, so might be 1.5% from each trekker in a 10-person group. But NOW trekking agencies tell their clients to each tip 15% of the total cost of their trek (which often includes accommodations, food, internal flights). This results in tips equal to 10-20 times the annual salary of guide/porter. Agencies then reduce what they pay staff, and the whole process has grossly inflates the costs.

Being a regular, I stay away from these agencies and these practices, but the majority of trekkers are 1st-time visitors, and fall into this ripoff.

So: Learn the norms, tip appropriately, and don't over tip. Even if it seems inexpensive.

[KWF]

There seem to be two parallel discussions going on here.
One is about the practice of tipping in general, its pluses and
minuses, about business paying decent salaries vs expecting
their employees to receive tips. And the other is about whether
to tip in a region or industry where tipping is expected. I'll
raise a third consideration. In general boaters are better
off than the people who serve the boaters at the docks, and some
are very much better off. Helping someone out who is at the low
end of the wage scale is just a nice thing to do.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

And I really wish those on the pro-tip side would stop characterizing this as a "cheapskate" issue. Those of us who are trying to have a reasoned discussion about the practice have made it VERY CLEAR, this is not about ripping people off, or not wanting to pay. Exactly the opposite in fact. Of course, we can all afford a fiver. That's not the point*. So can we stop with the shame game, and actually look at the system of faux-tipping?

If you do -- and there's plenty of research literature on the subject -- you might come away with a different perspective. At the very least, one needs to understand the historic and systemic issues which this method of paying people comes out of, and what it promotes in our societies.

*And why does the same argument not apply to the owner of the business?

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by KWF

There seem to be two parallel discussions going on here.
One is about the practice of tipping in general, its pluses and
minuses, about business paying decent salaries vs expecting
their employees to receive tips. And the other is about whether
to tip in a region or industry where tipping is expected. I'll
raise a third consideration. In general boaters are better
off than the people who serve the boaters at the docks, and some
are very much better off. Helping someone out who is at the low
end of the wage scale is just a nice thing to do.

You don't say just where in the world you are, I can say that where I am many boaters would fit your assessment, however by far the greater proportion are those that have been careful and frugal for years and are enjoying the benefits with an interest that they enjoy.
For others that seem to assume that boat = wealth, not by a long shot for most of us.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

You don't say just where in the world you are, I can say that where I am many boaters would fit your assessment, however by far the greater proportion are those that have been careful and frugal for years and are enjoying the benefits with an interest that they enjoy.
For others that seem to assume that boat = wealth, not by a long shot for most of us.

Since Paramatta is now closed, if you live in Sydney you’re rich!

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

With the numbers that have been thrown out, of $5-10 for a pumpout, and the same for fuel, you get out what, 10-15 times a year? It really adds up if you sail 100+ days a year. Even when I was working, I was out 20-30 weekends a year, although my pumpout is self-service (my idea of a good pumpout!).


The non-renewal wouldn't change if that sailor had left $20 tips for every pumpout - the marina looks at the receipts, not the tips for dockhands. Now, if the sailor sent tips to management for each pumpout, that might have made a difference.

Not really- we are more like 50-75 cruising days per year and about 1500nm per season- but anchor out more than we dock, like to sail so fuel up only 3-4 times per season (100-150 hours on engine per season), and empty tank when offshore. And, when we stop for fuel, pumpout at same time- that’s a $5-10 tip combined

My overall point above is that sailors DO have a tap for being cheap in the US. Nickeling and diming marine services. We/I are generally DIY. And the marine industry seems to know this in general and caters to where the profit comes from- powerboats

So, do I agree with the tipping industry? After reading this thread even less than before.

But I sure am not going to take it out on the frontlines of the industry by not tipping.

[AKA-None]

Well if the expectations are a tip gets you better service then you should negotiate that right up front before the service is rendered

[smj]

Originally Posted by KWF

There seem to be two parallel discussions going on here.

One is about the practice of tipping in general, its pluses and

minuses, about business paying decent salaries vs expecting

their employees to receive tips. And the other is about whether

to tip in a region or industry where tipping is expected. I'll

raise a third consideration. In general boaters are better

off than the people who serve the boaters at the docks, and some

are very much better off. Helping someone out who is at the low

end of the wage scale is just a nice thing to do.

So do you tip the person that takes your order at McDonalds? How about the cook? Do you tip anyone at WalMart? The hardware store? West Marine associates that help you order your boating parts? How about your garbage man? The cashier at a gas station or convenience store? The list could go on and on, yet some of these people do much more than wrap a line from your boat to a cleat or hand you a gas pump nozzle.

[Allied39]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Well if the expectations are a tip gets you better service then you should negotiate that right up front before the service is rendered

I must say that some folks seem to have a poor understanding of how tips work.
You tip afterward. I generally tip heavy, but I have tipped light. I once left a dime......that was what the service was worth. Pretty sure they got the message.

I wouldn't tip a pump out guy before he pumps out.
Perhaps the folks that find tipping so abhorrent do so because they simply don't understand the system. Most definitely how it appears to me.

I am surprised this thread hasn't been closed.