Tipping

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

An old myth...law states that if you add in tips and it's not enough to at least hit minimum wage, the business has to make up the difference. On the other hand, it's very easy for tipped staff to commit tax evasion as there is generally minimal paper trail. So long as they don't get stupid about it, it's pretty easy to hide 20-30% of their income from the govt.

By the way, go into a restaurant and ask the wait staff to accept say $12-15/hr wage and refuse all tips...I'll give you 10-1 odds, 75% refuse and the other 25% will want to change their answer once they see the difference.

You are correct sir, that's exactly what has happened. I work daily with the New York City hospitality industry so I can speak to specifics. Service staff are paid $10 an hour, less than the $15 an hour minimum wage. They must make at least $15 including tips or the company must make up the difference. So a couple of years ago there was a movement to eliminate tips, so menu prices went up 20%. What happened is that the restaurants that had a no tipping policy sort of decline in business and the service staff had a decline in revenue due to lost business and due to reduced compensation per table. In other words they made more tipped than getting a higher wage. Restaurants are a low profit business, they can only afford to do so much especially in high cost area. So even if they pay $30 an hour and no tips, that's dramatically less than the $80,000 to 130,000 server would generally make in New York City. Some even make more than that. A couple of years ago there was a big moment to eliminating tipping, most restaurants that tried it went back to tipping model, they were losing staff because the lower wages and actually losing business because even though tips were included people were dissuaded from dining because of the higher menu prices. You would think that someone who can pay for $100 per person plus dinner would know the difference, but apparently not. I know tipping is uncommon outside the US, but the service staff are not making the same money either.

[AKA-None]

Well all those tips are likely not reported and paid into social security so one day those folks are going to wonder why that ss check is so tiny

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Well all those tips are likely not reported and paid into social security so one day those folks are going to wonder why that ss check is so tiny

Those days are mostly over. For any large restaurant and most small, tips are included on the payroll for tax and compliance services. If they do not, they should expect a visit from a friendly IRS agent. No one believes that a server in a restaurant in a metropolitan area is making $26K, the game is over.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

OMG- the cavalier attitude about handling somebody else's sh*t and piss. Unbelievable. And clearly you've never taken a sh*t shower when some genius overfilled his holding take and the contents (under pressure) exploded out when you removed the cap from the deck plate. Because I guarantee that happens.

I like you, but...


Climb down off your high horse. I've designed, installed, and repaired sanitary wastewater plants and waded through foot-deep sewage with condoms floating in it. I know exactly what it's about. A very hands-on chemical engineer.


Men work in these plants for $14/hour, no tips. Same for honey dippers. No tips.



And if you make any mess or have any contact while pumping out, you did it wrong.


As for the shower... I never open a cap on any unknown tank without covering it. Drums pressurize etc. But yes, I agree there can be issues.


---


You won't hear me say there are not problems with pay. The $14/hr. guys I speak of should make more in my opinion. They work a lot harder than the guy on the dock. But they'll never see a tip.


The point is that tipping is not solving the problem. It just reduces base pay. An endless cycle.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I wonder why marinas and their employees rather deal with power boaters and why they think sailors are a cheap lot. After reading this thread, I just can't put my finger on it.

Exactly!

There isn’t a powerboater alive that doesn’t tip when they filled the tank up.

This thread is frankly an embarrassment.


All this drivel about living wage. That has nothing to do with it. The kids working the docks for a summer job are getting a living wage. The tip is because you make a ton of money compared to what they make. And you are showing them your appreciation both for their place in life, and helping them pursue their young person boating and educational dreams.

This has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with human decency. And it looks like a lot of people here have none.

If people can’t see that, I feel really bad for them actually.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Exactly!



There isn’t a powerboater alive that doesn’t tip when they filled the tank up.



This thread is frankly an embarrassment.





All this drivel about living wage. That has nothing to do with it. The kids working the docks for a summer job are getting a living wage. The tip is because you make a ton of money compared to what they make. And you are showing them your appreciation both for their place in life, and helping them pursue their young person boating and educational dreams.



This has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with human decency. And it looks like a lot of people here have none.



If people can’t see that, I feel really bad for them actually.

I’ve tipped kids working the docks and I’ve not tipped kids working the docks, it all depends on their attitude and how they treat me. It’s a bitch being a kid and learning the ways of the world, but someone has to do their part to teach them? I feel no remorse or regrets for my actions, whether I tip or not.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with human decency. And it looks like a lot of people here have none.

If you can't comprehend that anyone with "human decency" would pay people a living wage, and not rely on the fickle graces of strangers, then ... I guess I feel really bad for you.

[Allied39]

Whoohoo! thisun is gettin good!!

People feeling bad for each other because they are so despicable!!

Gotta tell you Chutu, it's because they don't understand the system, if they had any idea they wouldn't be so condescending.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by sagablu

You are correct sir, that's exactly what has happened. I work daily with the New York City hospitality industry so I can speak to specifics. Service staff are paid $10 an hour, less than the $15 an hour minimum wage. They must make at least $15 including tips or the company must make up the difference. So a couple of years ago there was a movement to eliminate tips, so menu prices went up 20%. What happened is that the restaurants that had a no tipping policy sort of decline in business and the service staff had a decline in revenue due to lost business and due to reduced compensation per table. In other words they made more tipped than getting a higher wage. Restaurants are a low profit business, they can only afford to do so much especially in high cost area. So even if they pay $30 an hour and no tips, that's dramatically less than the $80,000 to 130,000 server would generally make in New York City. Some even make more than that. A couple of years ago there was a big moment to eliminating tipping, most restaurants that tried it went back to tipping model, they were losing staff because the lower wages and actually losing business because even though tips were included people were dissuaded from dining because of the higher menu prices. You would think that someone who can pay for $100 per person plus dinner would know the difference, but apparently not. I know tipping is uncommon outside the US, but the service staff are not making the same money either.

I understand what you are saying here but disagree with the concept.

I have gone to plenty of NYC restaurants and have always tipped however I do not agree with tipping as a general rule - where do you draw a line? Tipping has become so common around here that everyone expects it - the pizza delivery guy, the appliance delivery guy, the guy who closes and opens my sprinklers, massage therapists, gas station workers, car wash guys, barbers etc. I don't believe everyone above makes less than minimum wage. Why don't we tip the customer service rep who just helped unlock your computer remotely? Why don't we tip nurses or physicians? Why does one haggle on the sticker price at a car dealership - it is a tip (a hefty one) for the sales rep! Again, where do we draw the line?

Years ago I used to work as a pharmacy tech in downtown NY and deliver meds to elderly folks, on my first delivery a sweet lady offers me $2, I didn't take it as it was "free money" to me which I didn't earn, in fact, I did not accept any tips while I worked there. When I told my pharmacist this he said I am an idiot and should have accepted the tips but that is not what I believe in, where I come from we earn our wage, not expect someone to "give" us money. Problem with tipping is that it's variable - there is no standard to it, you can make more or less, whereas standardizing appropriate wages help you earn your income, one that is worth.

I don't agree with the fact that sailors are seen badly on the docks as we don't tip, sailors are looked down upon because unlike powerboaters, we do our own work. If you think the marinas will smilingly open their slips for you just because you gave a 20 to that 16 yr old summer boy you are very naïve.

It hurts workers when they expect a tip and don't get it, this "chance" should be taken out, everyone should be paid what they are worth. If you (no one in particular) like to tip go ahead, no one is stopping you, if you don't like to be told not to tip then you shouldn't tell others to tip.

Finally, I would gladly pay increased menu prices to accommodate servers' increased salary, yes, there will be pain initially in the restaurant industry but if everyone does it the culture will change, this does not stop someone from tipping for good service.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Allied39

Whoohoo! thisun is gettin good!!



People feeling bad for each other because they are so despicable!!



Gotta tell you Chutu, it's because they don't understand the system, if they had any idea they wouldn't be so condescending.

What system?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Allied39

Gotta tell you Chutu, it's because they don't understand the system, if they had any idea they wouldn't be so condescending.

Maybe it is you and Chutu that don't understand the system. Perhaps if you take the time to understand the criticism, and more importantly, to read the actual history and research on the subject of tipping, you wouldn't be so dismissive. This is not about being stingy. But it is certainly about basic human decency -- in this case, the decency to pay people a wage they can actually live on.

Most of the rest of the developed world understands this.

[SeanPatrick]

I worked very briefly as a waiter in the U.S. many years ago, so I have some experience on both sides of the issue. When I started, they told me the job would affect my own tipping habits in the following two ways: 1) I would be more critical of my waiter because I would know what to expect from a top-notch server, and 2) I would probably still tip better than average because I would know everything that the waiter was doing that I didn't see. And both of those things turned out to be absolutely true.

In the U.S., tipping is generally reserved for service related jobs. The idea being that the person providing the service has a good reason to provide the best possible service. There are, of course, numerous pros and cons to the practice in the real world, but I think it generally works as intended.

One thing I can tell you is that the tips I received were almost always appropriate to the level of service I provided. Which means I didn't make very much money at all, because I am a terrible waiter - which is why I was only briefly a waiter. OTOH, my co-workers were raking in more money than I had ever seen at that point in my life.

My best week for tips followed a day-trip with some friends down to Nags Head. We spent the entire day - sunup to sundown - on the beach and I didn't apply any sunscreen.

... And I'm a ginger.

[OutOfControl]

Originally Posted by sagablu

Those days are mostly over. For any large restaurant and most small, tips are included on the payroll for tax and compliance services. If they do not, they should expect a visit from a friendly IRS agent. No one believes that a server in a restaurant in a metropolitan area is making $26K, the game is over.

My wife worked for a large US chain restaurant where she was required to report tips based on her food and beverage sales. I believe it was 10% of her sales regardless on how much she actually was tipped.

She also, as another poster opined, gave some of her tips to the bus boys/food runners and the bartender. I don't recall if she shared any tips with the kitchen staff. She made decent money but eventually the job took its toil on her physical health.

We tip with the knowledge of what the job entails.

[Wotname]

Just wondering about the USA system of tipping - from what is written here it applies to the service related industries. Where do you draw the line? There are a lot of service industries where the service providers aren't tipped or I assume they aren't tipped.

Do service providers like surgeons, judges, jurors, LEOs, fire wardens, custom officials etc get tipped - if not, why not.

Is the line drawn at low paid service providers - if so, that seems like to be a societal endorsed begging. Are you tippers happy with encouraging begging.

You say it 'improves the service provided". Why is that job of the customer? Surely it is the employers role to ensure the staff provide good service.

Where is the line between a tip and a bribe, both are used to ensure you get a service you want?

[Allied39]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Maybe it is you and Chutu that don't understand the system. Perhaps if you take the time to understand the criticism, and more importantly, to read the actual history and research on the subject of tipping, you wouldn't be so dismissive. This is not about being stingy. But it is certainly about basic human decency -- in this case, the decency to pay people a wage they can actually live on.

Most of the rest of the developed world understands this.

Hmm, perhaps you are right, perhaps I do not understand. I have worked for minimum wage, a long time ago when I had few skills and made my boss little money. But that soon changed. I soon became an asset, with knowledge and skills and base wage was never anything I ever received again because I made my bosses good money, real good money.

But that didin't last long, cause I dont like making other people money, I like to make it for me and mine. I am not a one trick dog, over the years I have gained many skills in many fields and choose to use those skills as I wish, when I wish, if I wish.

I still learn skills today. learning all the time.

I cant speak for chotu but yeah, I cannot understand not moving fwd. I cannot understand not learning or gaining knowledge.

I cannot understand feeling like I am owed something. I cannot understand not tipping well, unless the service is bad of course, then my tip will reflect that.

But I do understand that you cannot get the concept that this Living wage BS just makes everything more expensive, and the exact folks you think you care about are the ones that get hurt the most.

I have lived in both systems, seen plenty and really dont feel bad at all as you feel sad form me. I know the kid at the dock or the waitress at the restraunt will likely be happier having dealt with me than you.

Enough of this silliness.