Tipping

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Is the pump out part of the normal job of this worker? Aren't you already paying for the service? If so, then why would you consider paying more?

Oh... I understand the reason. This isn't a tip in the traditional sense. It is part of the fee for the service. Tipping's original intent was to reward service that went far beyond normal expectations. But most especially in the USA and its satellites (Canada being one), tipping has become a way to shift the cost of workers away from the employers, and directly onto the customers.

The restaurant industry long fell to this practice, and it is bleeding out into many areas now. It is a terrible way to compensate people for the work they do. As osprey877 indicates, it leads to a whole set of problems in society, and is rarely beneficial to workers in general.

But it is complicated... A person stuck in one of these low-wage jobs that have been shifted to the tipping model may need tips just to make a livable income. So my advice in this case is to tip if necessary, BUT go talk to the management and complain that they are underpaying their workers, and that you will be moving your business to someplace that pays people fairly.

And yes... that means you will have to pay more for your pump out, but you're already doing that through the tip.

Hey Mike...Know the difference between a Canoe and a Canadian???




















































































































Canoes tip!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

As I said, the discussion of whether minimum wage should grow along with overall economic growth

If they are doing the same job with the same skill set and getting an inflation adjusted wage that is the same...why would they get a raise because others are doing more, generating more and thus getting more.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Well all those tips are likely not reported and paid into social security so one day those folks are going to wonder why that ss check is so tiny

Actually, if you look at the way SS is structured, it's not much of a hit.

When they calculate the average monthly wages used in the SS calculation:
- Roughly the 1st $1000, they get 90% as part of their monthly check.
- The next band up it drops to 32%.
- Then 15%

If their 35yr average is dropped from $900/month to $500/month, yeah it has a big impact and they were going to pay little or nothing in income taxes anyway. But very few people make such a small amount over their lifetime.

If they eventually move on to a professional career and it drops their monthly number from $5000/month to $4600/month, it's not a big difference.

PS: they index your wages to inflation so just because you made $2.50/hr back in 1950 doesn't mean they will throw in $6k as your annual earnings in the calculation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by sagablu

Those days are mostly over. For any large restaurant and most small, tips are included on the payroll for tax and compliance services. If they do not, they should expect a visit from a friendly IRS agent. No one believes that a server in a restaurant in a metropolitan area is making $26K, the game is over.

If they are making $75k and report $26k...that falls under being stupid.

If they are making $75k and report $65k...unless they do something obvious, IRS likely will never know.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Having spent the last 27 years earning my living in marinas (and part of that time owning a pumpout service), I have never been to a marina where staff did pumpouts, for tips or anything else.

Completely different on the East Coast, FB, happens all the time.

[contrail]

I have lived on both sides of the tipping equation, tipping and being tipped and working in capacities where tipping is unthinkable. I have also, at various stages of my life, been dead against tipping, and totally for it. Here is what I have come to believe: it does not matter AT ALL whether I think that employees should be paid better and not tipped, even though I do. The only thing that matters is what the custom is at the type of place and location where I am receiving my service. If I disagree with the local practice, then I am entitled to mention it to the management. I can take my business elsewhere. I am NOT entitled to invoke my own rules.



If I know that a tip is expected, which means what I should expect to pay is going to be a bit higher than listed (in fact, probably what it would be if there were no tips), and then I choose to grant myself the discount of not tipping, I am hurting one person...the one who served me, and I am being an inconsiderate and arrogant jerk. And, no amount of pious pontificating on how things are "where we come from", or how you think things should work, absolves you of this reality.



I have heard enough of those justifications and my reaction is that if people don't tip where you come from, then don't tip WHEN YOU ARE THERE. I won't, either. If you think the business should pay it's staff more, then be happy with higher prices. Most tipping businesses run on pretty tight margins, so that is the logical outcome. But, as a previous poster said, "In Rome, do as the Romans do." Some countries do not customarily tip. They know who they are. Believe me, the employees at tipping establishments know, too, and they aren't keen on your business. And, having run a large and active marina, staff would much rather deal with powerboaters.



I think all of us agree that a business has the right to establish its model. Certainly, we all think that of our own businesses, do we not? And then, as a customer, we have the right to patronize or not, but we don't have the right to unilaterally change that model.


I am truly sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings. I feel even sorrier for the poor person who has been stiffed by someone who thinks he or she has the right to determine what should be a local custom.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by contrail

I have heard enough of those justifications and my reaction is that if people don't tip where you come from, then don't tip WHEN YOU ARE THERE. I won't, either. If you think the business should pay it's staff more, then be happy with higher prices. Most tipping businesses run on pretty tight margins, so that is the logical outcome. But, as a previous poster said, "In Rome, do as the Romans do."

Which is exactly what I wrote some pages ago. To quote me:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry, but if Americans (and Canadians... it's not just an "American thing") were so generous, they'd pay people adequately. This is not about generosity, or the lack thereof. There is a much deeper, and more complex, systemic issue going on.

As individuals, all we can do is make a choice based on the facts on the ground. In areas where tips are an essential part of a worker's income, then it is necessary to provide it. This is the worst way to compensate people for the work they do, but it would be unfair to punish the workers. It's not a tip. It's part of the wage.

But in areas where tipping has not yet taken hold, the best we can do is resist making it so. Tell the management you believe their staff is underpaid, and you will be taking your business elsewhere. And do so. Only this will change behaviour.

and further:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Is the pump out part of the normal job of this worker? Aren't you already paying for the service? If so, then why would you consider paying more?

Oh... I understand the reason. This isn't a tip in the traditional sense. It is part of the fee for the service. Tipping's original intent was to reward service that went far beyond normal expectations. But most especially in the USA and its satellites (Canada being one), tipping has become a way to shift the cost of workers away from the employers, and directly onto the customers.

The restaurant industry long fell to this practice, and it is bleeding out into many areas now. It is a terrible way to compensate people for the work they do. As osprey877 indicates, it leads to a whole set of problems in society, and is rarely beneficial to workers in general.

But it is complicated... A person stuck in one of these low-wage jobs that have been shifted to the tipping model may need tips just to make a livable income. So my advice in this case is to tip if necessary, BUT go talk to the management and complain that they are underpaying their workers, and that you will be moving your business to someplace that pays people fairly.

And yes... that means you will have to pay more for your pump out, but you're already doing that through the tip.

As for the idea that tipping gets you better service -- this is not shown in research. This question has been studied in the restaurant industry. Where tipping is part of the normal wage (and hence, not an actual tip), research shows that services levels are not impacted by tipping.

There is no contest that the restaurant industry in the USA and its satellites have long fallen to the practice of customers directly paying workers. But there is a continual push to expand the practice out beyond the restaurant service sector. It's no surprise, since the practice mainly benefits owners (despite all the personal anecdotes; again, read the research).

If people actually care about workers, then the best thing you can do in these areas where faux-tipping is expanding into, is push back.

[Allied39]

Originally Posted by contrail

I have lived on both sides of the tipping equation, tipping and being tipped and working in capacities where tipping is unthinkable. I have also, at various stages of my life, been dead against tipping, and totally for it. Here is what I have come to believe: it does not matter AT ALL whether I think that employees should be paid better and not tipped, even though I do. The only thing that matters is what the custom is at the type of place and location where I am receiving my service. If I disagree with the local practice, then I am entitled to mention it to the management. I can take my business elsewhere. I am NOT entitled to invoke my own rules.



If I know that a tip is expected, which means what I should expect to pay is going to be a bit higher than listed (in fact, probably what it would be if there were no tips), and then I choose to grant myself the discount of not tipping, I am hurting one person...the one who served me, and I am being an inconsiderate and arrogant jerk. And, no amount of pious pontificating on how things are "where we come from", or how you think things should work, absolves you of this reality.



I have heard enough of those justifications and my reaction is that if people don't tip where you come from, then don't tip WHEN YOU ARE THERE. I won't, either. If you think the business should pay it's staff more, then be happy with higher prices. Most tipping businesses run on pretty tight margins, so that is the logical outcome. But, as a previous poster said, "In Rome, do as the Romans do." Some countries do not customarily tip. They know who they are. Believe me, the employees at tipping establishments know, too, and they aren't keen on your business. And, having run a large and active marina, staff would much rather deal with powerboaters.



I think all of us agree that a business has the right to establish its model. Certainly, we all think that of our own businesses, do we not? And then, as a customer, we have the right to patronize or not, but we don't have the right to unilaterally change that model.


I am truly sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings. I feel even sorrier for the poor person who has been stiffed by someone who thinks he or she has the right to determine what should be a local custom.

Oh well said , well said. I particularly like the bit about " pious pontificating"!

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Just wondering about the USA system of tipping - from what is written here it applies to the service related industries. Where do you draw the line? There are a lot of service industries where the service providers aren't tipped or I assume they aren't tipped.

Do service providers like surgeons, judges, jurors, LEOs, fire wardens, custom officials etc get tipped - if not, why not.

There's a gap in my knowledge, but I'll provide what I have anyway.

In Europe, both historically and today in many cases, hospitality was/is a profession (things are flexing a bit- so I'll use the word "is" rather than "was" or a combination). A high-end restaurant waiter in Germany, for example, is a professional with great pride in his work, and it is offensive to tip him.

How USA got into the tipping thing I do not know. It has been for my lifetime expected for served dining and delivery (e.g., pizza delivery.) The standard tip for a bar or restaurant is 15%, which is at the discretion of the client. I've tipped 0% and I've tipped 30%.

Side note that some restaurants add a "helpful" tipping schedule at the end of the bill, making it easy to figure out how much to tip if you want to leave 15%, 18%, or 20%. The scam is that many calculate this including tax; the tip is supposed to be only on the product, not the tax. So be careful.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a free lunch, so both restaurants and government had to get their cut of the tips. Restaurants, with the approval of government, can reduce hourly pay based on "probably" income from tips. And, of course, government wants some of that money, so it's taxable. So tips are not the boon they used to be, and as previously cited can actually hurt a server (though truthfully only crappy servers.)

Tipping service workers has spread beyond restaurants. It's not been uncommon for decades to give the newspaper delivery kid $5 at the end of the year; this has expanded somewhat to tip the UPS guy $20 at the end of the year.

Then there are the "tip jars" being exactly what it says. Short-service / counter services don't typically try to collect (now changing) the 15% tip, instead put a jar on the counter into which clients can throw the excess change. Not unlike Klein Geld, a dollar or whatever, left behind as a tip in Germany (and, Australia.) A token.

One does not tip at McDonald's or coffee counters, though the latter- now self-promoting as "baristas" as if they are actually of some sort of skilled value, make a lot of noise about wanting tips.

VERY seldom would one tip the auto repair guy, the garbage pickup guy, or the marina dock hand, etc. HOWEVER, I've found doing so increases the level of service. But it is neither customary nor expected.

Fire departments solicit for contributions and hold BBQ for revenue. It's a US custom, particularly the BBQ. In many small towns the Fire Dept is the center of their world- where people are married, where the community gathers.

Taxis and Uber usually get tipped a couple bucks, say 10%.

Judges, fire wardens, cops, and others have to be careful. "Tips" can be seen as bribery, and can cause big problems for them and you. NEVER EVER offer or tip a US government employee.


To sum it up for the poor visitors to USA: if you sit at a restaurant and they bring your food, standard tip is 15%. If you have a pizza delivered, tip a couple dollars. Nobody else gets tipped.

[SailRN]

I agree with Osprey877 msg #13 that expected tipping is a bad idea.





I do know that restaurants in the U.S.A. rely on the customer to pay the waiter or waitress a tip, but at least at the time I was an assistant manager at a restaurant the employer was required by law to ensure the server was paid at least the minimum wage, and if that wage wasn't met by tips the restaurant had to make up the difference.


So, unless the law has changed, all waiters and waitresses always make at least the minimum wage, either by tips or by the restaurant's payroll. And frequently the service they provide isn't worth the minimum wage.


So, you can omit the tip and know that the server is getting at least minimum wages.


And if you actually do some calculations involving the amount of time spent serving you, say maybe less than 12 minutes in an hour's visit, and the number of other customers they're serving during that hour, and then calculate your tip and estimating most of the other customers are probably tipping similarly, you will likely find they make more per hour than you do, and in often unreported and untaxed income.

Consider this, if you feel they should be paid $20/h, and they spend only 12 minutes of the hour in total dealing with your meal, then your share for that 12 minutes is $20/h * 0.2 h = $4.00. If your tip is $10 for that hour, then you really just paid them $10/0.2 h = $50/h! More than I make as a Registered Nurse unless I'm on a travel contract. And multiply that by 4 or 5 other customers and you get $200/h or $250/h!

And I'm really against the percentage method of determining a tip. If I go into an expensive restaurant and tip by percentage, and later go into an inexpensive restaurant and tip by percentage, then there is a disparity. Using percentages I may pay the expensive restaurant server much more money for equal or less service than that provided at the inexpensive restaurant! And frankly I often get much better service at the less expensive restaurant. Wonder why that is?

And as prices have been increasing for many decades, then the percentage tip has also been increasing, so who said it now has to be 20% or more instead of the older 10%? The Lord our God only asks for 10%, and I'm much more thankful and grateful to Him than I am to anyone else! And governmental taxes for restaurant food is 7% here and they give me fire protection and roads, the server just gave me a hamburger and a RC Cola.

I use a system which rewards each individual action, for example such as being attentive and refilling my drink without my having to ask, and a little less if I have to ask for a refill. This allows me to be more equitable to the server regardless of prices charged by the restaurants.

Expected tips are really just bribery. Earned tips for service above and beyond reward those that work harder. Expected tips allow shoddy service with the expectation of a tip anyway.

And I've worked in jobs that may often be tipped, but even so I don't expect a tip; I'm not owed a tip, but I am thankful of course if I get one. I volunteer as an unpaid instructor to teach CPR/AED and First Aid for community groups and if I'm teaching in a clubhouse in a gated community I sometimes put out a tip jar, but it has a label that a tip is not expected but is appreciated.

And on another note: As licensed persons are generally excluded from gratuities, and I am a licensed Registered Nurse, gratuities are neither expected or accepted, even if gratuities are given for personal service, and there is probably nothing more personal than sticking a tube up someone's bottom. Just sayin'. Maybe I should put out a tip jar?

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Do service providers like surgeons, judges, jurors, LEOs, fire wardens, custom officials etc get tipped - if not, why not.

No, of course not. The reason is: that would be silly. Most people consider those jobs to be just a little different than something like bringing someone their food or driving them to their destination. They are [mostly] paid well (obviously much better than the best tips), but they are also held to a higher standard. If my waiter brings me the wrong drink, I don't think a lawsuit is appropriate. If my surgeon operates on the wrong body part, I don't think a bad tip would be appropriate. The line is drawn using common sense.

(Side note: Personally, I think LEOs should be paid more. Jury duty is just that: a duty - not a job.)

Originally Posted by Wotname

You say it 'improves the service provided". Why is that job of the customer? Surely it is the employers role to ensure the staff provide good service.

How would the management of a restaurant ensure that each and every one of their say fifteen servers is providing excellent service to every table? That every drink is refilled in a timely manner? That customer requests are accurately fulfilled? They would need a manager basically hovering over every table. Or, they could let the customer be the judge.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As for the idea that tipping gets you better service -- this is not shown in research. This question has been studied in the restaurant industry. Where tipping is part of the normal wage (and hence, not an actual tip), research shows that services levels are not impacted by tipping.

As I wrote, I did my own research. I was a terrible waiter, and I got lousy tips, while the people who were good at it got great tips. The result was that I got a different job. Now, there is one less lousy waiter out there. Maybe my research is wrong. Or maybe the other research is. (News flash: research can be wrong.)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, to add to what SailRN wrote above: One night at the restaurant, management failed to give me any tables - even after I reminded them several times that I had none. So, for my whole shift, I did everyone else's "running duties" - small jobs that were distributed among the servers like filling the ice bins and wrapping silverware in napkins.

At the end of the night, closing duties (cleaning up, etc.) were assigned according to what section of tables each server had. Management was looking over the whiteboard of assigned sections and, of course, didn't see my name. They asked what I had been doing all night and I told them. I had been working for US$2.19/hour the entire time - far below minimum wage. They instructed every one of the other servers to give me a portion of their tips. Which was only fair, considering I had been doing part of their job. The other servers gladly paid me, because it hadn't escaped them that all the extra work was getting done - by someone.

Point is: I got paid anyway. Probably even more than I would have made with any tables.

[Tetepare]

I wonder, if after five pages, the OP's question has been answered.

[sagablu]

Can we all at least agree that a tipped service provider who is particularly attractive and/or wearing an interesting outfit would be eligible for slightly larger tip. This of course may have little relevance to the OP's original post relating to pump out. Just saying.

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

How USA got into the tipping thing I do not know

Came directly out of slavery, in the Jim Crow era when businesses did not want to pay a full wage to African Americans. The Pullman Company was pivitol in spreading the idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-united-states


Arnesen, Eric. *Brotherhoods of Color: Black Railroad Workers and the Struggle for Equality*

Ayres, Ian, Fredrick E. Vars, and Nasser Zakariya. "To Insure Prejudice: Racial Disparities in Taxicab Tipping." *The Yale Law Journal* 114, no. 7 (2005): 1613-674.

Eeckhout, Patricia Van den. 2015. Waiters, waitresses, and their tips in western europe before world war I. *International Review of Social History* 60, (3) (12): 349-378,

Mentzer, Marc S. 2013. The payment of gratuities by customers in the united states: An historical analysis. *International Journal of Management* 30, (3) (09): 108-120

Segrave, Kerry. *Tipping: An American Social History of Gratuities*

Bates, Beth Tompkins. *Pullman Porters and the Rise of Protest Politics in Black America, 1925-1945*

[SeanPatrick]

Technically, the question was answered in the first reply. But this would be a rather boring forum if every thread was only two or three posts long, IMHO.