Tipping

[contrail]

Here is a real life scenario that may be of interest to this community. Crewed charter, which means a charter which includes a captain and chef (maybe more people if the boat is bigger) and, usually, food, drink, and everything else, is not a high profit business. Many boats operate at around a break even, or even a loss, the loss being less than what a boat sitting idle might cost the owner. Those that actually make a profit, using realistic accounting practices (mortgate, cost of money, etc. etc) are few and far between. The owners do it to have the use of a well cared for boat. In the Caribbean, the main part of the crew's income is from tipping. This is different from the Med, and probably other places, BUT IT IS THE CASE in the Caribbean. The tipping culture is almost always clearly spelled out by the brokers. Most of the better ones actually do the hypothetical math, in order to prepare the guests to take sufficient cash or otherwise prepare for it. The better brokers will point out what the overall cost for the charter will be. And it will often even be on the first page of the contract, the signature page, in addition to being explained at other times during the booking process. Of course, it is NOT mandatory, and usually is, in fact, based on the quaity of service given. But a tip is specified.


The crewed charter yacht business is highly competitive, and potential guests are usually very price sensitive. Over the years, the model has changed from the boats being primarily "owner operated", where the captain (or the couple) owned the boat, to what it is now, which is primarily, "crew operated", where the crew is paid by an absentee owner. However, in either case, the main income of the crew is from tipping, whether the crew owns the boat, or not. And, to head off the suggestion, if a boat charged a higher rate than "market", so the crew, who might be the owners, made a better wage eliminating the need for tipping, it would not get many bookings.



So, the reality, is that all boats and crews do the same work (yes, some provide better service than others, but it is all pretty good!), and all are subject to the same costs and other business requirements.


But there is a subset of charter guests that object to tipping the owner(s), often because they, themselves, own a business and don't get tipped in their own professions. They have been duly prepared about tipping, have signed a contract noting that tipping is "customary", have happily received a very high level of luxury service, but have come with the absolute and advance intent to not tip, "because the crew are the owners, and I don't get tipped in my business". Hopefully, their business makes a big profit, but the charter boat will not. And, to stay in business, it really does not have the option to charge more, even though it may wish it could.



Of all the self rationalizing that goes in exempting one's self from tipping, in a location and environment where it is customary, to me, this one absolutely takes the cake!

[flee27]

I understand what is being said abovein contrail's post. A lot of my statement is just to express another view and not completely my view (but some of it is my view).

In the above scenario I still don't get the obligation falling on the customer for the employees income/sustainability of the business.

In non tipping businesses if you can't operate in a sustainable manor for whatever the reason you close the doors. No one makes the argument that the customers should feel obligated to support the business at an additional level so they can stay open.

To me it all goes back to the opinion that tipping should be accepted as a voluntary way to show thanks/appreciation to a person for the service they provided you. Not a payroll expense or as a legal bride.

At the same time I would never go on the example charter above and not tip. Not because I agree with the expected tipping but because I would have the understanding that the expected tipping is part of the game. If I really felt strongly about not playing the expected tipping game than I wouldn't go on the charter.

JMO.

Foster

[smj]

Before I spend a large amount of money on something, I want to know the hard costs, and you can’t figure hard costs if a contract states tipping is customary as you don’t know if captain or crew would be worthy of a tip.
My family did a captained charter in the BVI’s years ago and the captain was so pathetic my father refused to tip and would have appreciated a partial refund for the trip.
So give me the hard costs and let me leave a gratuity if I feel the captain and crew went above and beyond. If the captain and crew don’t receive a tip then it’s up to them to decide if the customers were cheap or maybe they sucked at their job.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by contrail

Here is a real life scenario that may be of interest to this community. Crewed charter, which means a charter which includes a captain and chef (maybe more people if the boat is bigger) and, usually, food, drink, and everything else, is not a high profit business. Many boats operate at around a break even, or even a loss, the loss being less than what a boat sitting idle might cost the owner. Those that actually make a profit, using realistic accounting practices (mortgate, cost of money, etc. etc) are few and far between. The owners do it to have the use of a well cared for boat. In the Caribbean, the main part of the crew's income is from tipping. This is different from the Med, and probably other places, BUT IT IS THE CASE in the Caribbean. The tipping culture is almost always clearly spelled out by the brokers. Most of the better ones actually do the hypothetical math, in order to prepare the guests to take sufficient cash or otherwise prepare for it. The better brokers will point out what the overall cost for the charter will be. And it will often even be on the first page of the contract, the signature page, in addition to being explained at other times during the booking process. Of course, it is NOT mandatory, and usually is, in fact, based on the quaity of service given. But a tip is specified.


The crewed charter yacht business is highly competitive, and potential guests are usually very price sensitive. Over the years, the model has changed from the boats being primarily "owner operated", where the captain (or the couple) owned the boat, to what it is now, which is primarily, "crew operated", where the crew is paid by an absentee owner. However, in either case, the main income of the crew is from tipping, whether the crew owns the boat, or not. And, to head off the suggestion, if a boat charged a higher rate than "market", so the crew, who might be the owners, made a better wage eliminating the need for tipping, it would not get many bookings.



So, the reality, is that all boats and crews do the same work (yes, some provide better service than others, but it is all pretty good!), and all are subject to the same costs and other business requirements.


But there is a subset of charter guests that object to tipping the owner(s), often because they, themselves, own a business and don't get tipped in their own professions. They have been duly prepared about tipping, have signed a contract noting that tipping is "customary", have happily received a very high level of luxury service, but have come with the absolute and advance intent to not tip, "because the crew are the owners, and I don't get tipped in my business". Hopefully, their business makes a big profit, but the charter boat will not. And, to stay in business, it really does not have the option to charge more, even though it may wish it could.



Of all the self rationalizing that goes in exempting one's self from tipping, in a location and environment where it is customary, to me, this one absolutely takes the cake!

Respectfully disagree.

If all the charter companies increased their rates to accommodate crew pay then they won't have to rely on "non-standardized tipping".

Tipping is a way of thinking - I don't believe anyone on this thread is promoting underpaying workers (whether in the service industry or not), we are just differing on the practice of increasing workers' base pay vs leaving it to voluntary paying customers; I strongly oppose the mandatory tipping practice as a mean of bringing people's pay up to par.

Just so you know, we recently chartered a boat in the Carribean (Feb 2022) and were so happy with the crew that we paid ~30% tip, there is no value to our happiness and they made us have a blast; what I am saying is - let the tip be our token of appreciation and not their earned paycheck.

Because no one answered the question "where do we draw the line?" I asked twice in my previous thread, I will ask a question relating to a non-service industry - I own a construction business that is so competitive that I cannot increase my price, should I ask my clients to pay my employees extra as a tip to make up their pay? The same thing applies to the charter business - either you increase your price to accommodate your employees' pay or go out of business, my point is, this tipping culture has spread so wide that it is not confined to the service industry anymore.

Finally, the tipping police on this thread need to take a chill pill, before you ask me to open my wallet go to those owners and tell them to respect their employees.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Respectfully disagree.



If all the charter companies increased their rates to accommodate crew pay then they won't have to rely on "non-standardized tipping".



Tipping is a way of thinking - I don't believe anyone on this thread is promoting underpaying workers (whether in the service industry or not), we are just differing on the practice of increasing workers' base pay vs leaving it to voluntary paying customers; I strongly oppose the mandatory tipping practice as a mean of bringing people's pay up to par.



Just so you know, we recently chartered a boat in the Carribean (Feb 2022) and were so happy with the crew that we paid ~30% tip, there is no value to our happiness and they made us have a blast; what I am saying is - let the tip be our token of appreciation and not their earned paycheck.



Because no one answered the question "where do we draw the line?" I asked twice in my previous thread, I will ask a question relating to a non-service industry - I own a construction business that is so competitive that I cannot increase my price, should I ask my clients to pay my employees extra as a tip to make up their pay? The same thing applies to the charter business - either you increase your price to accommodate your employees' pay or go out of business, my point is, this tipping culture has spread so wide that it is not confined to the service industry anymore.



Finally, the tipping police on this thread need to take a chill pill, before you ask me to open my wallet go to those owners and tell them to respect their employees.

I build houses for a living and think we go above and beyond, but can’t sell the houses for much more than the others. No one tips the guys that work for me except me. At the end of the day I make less money but am satisfied with what I make and the product we put out. Have I ever received a tip? No and I’ve never expected one.
As a side note, when we go to restaurants I usually tip very well, especially for good service. Now when at a restaurant I don’t expect to serve my own food unless it’s a buffet, then the tip isn’t as high. When I pull up to a dock I would rather handle my own lines and pump my own fuel, should I be expected to tip a dock hand for watching me?

[Mike OReilly]

contrail, can't you see that your scenario is EXACTLY why the whole faux-tipping model* is bad for just about everyone?

You have these companies who compete on price by cutting the wages of the workers who actually make the business viable. They push the responsibility for paying THEIR workers directly onto the backs of customers. This pushes workers into a very precarious financial space where they must rely on the fickle good graces of complete strangers. This arrangement is ripe for abuse, as the research finds. The only ones who benefit from this arrangement are the owners.

NO ONE is suggesting workers should be underpaid. Exactly the opposite. What the faux-tipping model does is turn what should be normal wage income into a big uncertainty for the worker, and an unknown cost for the customer.

The facts on the ground are that some industries have fallen to this faux-tipping model. If you use these services today you bloody well better tip appropriately. But this whole discussion began around the question of tipping in a situation which has not yet fully succumbed to this practice. So the best thing customers can do is tip if necessary, but tell the owner to pay their worker appropriately, and more importantly, take your business to places where they don't follow this practice.

(I call it faux-tipping because it really isn't a tip. It's a wage.)

[Tetepare]

Some of my friends work restaurants, and they make a killing in tips. Their wage is meager, it's all tips. The owners of one of the restaurants know this because they bought the restaurant on their tips.

Mike, there are definitely issues with the scheme- as there are a half-million things. We do things the way we do because that's how it's been done. US Tax structure, and the legal system for that matter, is a train wreck because all anyone does is plug holes.

Overhaul is highly unlikely. Let's say right now my restaurant owner friends up employee pay to equal wage plus tips, and start a no tip policy. Good is that the employees then get money forced into Social Security. Bad is that the owners' costs on paper go up, and so will their prices, thanks to the myriad of nickle-and-time taxes employers pay.

As for workers relying on the good graces of customers, well yeah. I already said it. Crap service gets crap tip. Really crappy services gets $0 repeat because the clients don't return. They get what they (scary word here) earned.

Either way- you might be right, but this is one thing I doubt you'll change. Better luck with Daylight Savings Time.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Either way- you might be right, but this is one thing I doubt you'll change. Better luck with Daylight Savings Time.

Oh, I agree. And to be clear, I'm not trying to change the restaurant business, or indeed any other area that has fallen to the practice. Some people are trying to change it, but it's a Sisyphean struggle at this point.

All I and others are suggesting (in response to the OP's question) is that we stop the expansion of the practice. That IS something we can all do, by simply taking our business elsewhere.

Yeah... end that damn time change . Although why not switch to Standard time, not Daylight Savings? Either way, it's past time to stop changing time. Just ask Saskatchewaners, or Yukoners, or Crestonites.

[PaulCrawhorn]

> in many countries ALL WORKERS are paid a living wage and tips are a bonus

FTFY

[Kropdad]

Did you just call someone a "dock boy". Boy? Jesus wept...

[qwerme]

You are already paying for the service. I never thought this would be something you would tip for.

Do you also tip the guy at the fuel dock?

[Doubleplay]

When I read this thread it's very easy to understand which posters are well traveled and which ones have never been to anywhere else in their life but maybe Mexico or Bahamas where they see Americans as $$ signs. Unfortunately a lot of people here in the US have no idea what good service is and they tip even they get shitty service because they are conditioned to it. This whole tipping culture regardless of the service you get actually killing the service industry in this country,

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by sagablu

Can we all at least agree that a tipped service provider who is particularly attractive and/or wearing an interesting outfit would be eligible for slightly larger tip. This of course may have little relevance to the OP's original post relating to pump out. Just saying.

Actually, I'll give you 10-1 odds who gets better tips:
- Fat middle age guy who's quick, attentive and takes care of everything when doing the pump out.
- 20yr old hottie who just hands the hose over and flips the on switch once the owner hooks up the hose.

But a perfect example of why tipping is a horrible way to compensate employees.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

How would the management of a restaurant ensure that each and every one of their say fifteen servers is providing excellent service to every table? That every drink is refilled in a timely manner? That customer requests are accurately fulfilled? They would need a manager basically hovering over every table. Or, they could let the customer be the judge.

Oddly, in other jobs, the management take on the responsibility of overseeing employees. Somehow they manage.

No, they can't oversee every last task but waiting for the waitstaff to complain that their tips are down or far worse for the customer to complain before the manager looks into why is not good service.

If you go to quality restaurants, the manager often floats around the room checking on customers to see that they are being taken care of.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Doubleplay

When I read this thread it's very easy to understand which posters are well traveled and which ones have never been to anywhere else in their life but maybe Mexico or Bahamas where they see Americans as $$ signs. Unfortunately a lot of people here in the US have no idea what good service is and they tip even they get shitty service because they are conditioned to it. This whole tipping culture regardless of the service you get actually killing the service industry in this country,

You said it in one, and it’s right up there along with the questio on the last page about “how servers in the UK and Germany are able to live without tips”.

A lot of the rest of the world pays a decent living wage, with tips an additional bonus. Hell, some servers here in the UK just skip past the tip screen on the card machine and go straight to PIN entry.

I have no problem with Americans tipping in their country to prop up the meagre salaries paid. Tipping when abroad however screws the system, as it eventually becomes an expectation and everyone is expected to tip.

Do a great job serving our table? Definitely worth a 10% tip. Find me a berth when the marina’s packed? That’s definitely a case of beer coming your way. Hand me a fuel pump because it’s your job that your paid for? Not a chance.

N