To Help or Not

[JPA Cate]

It was very embarrassing having to be rescued and avoided that at all costs.

Yes, I've certainly felt that way. The day after we were dismasted, some of our land based friends wanted to escort us all the way in to the marina, and we just couldn't hear of it. As dusk approached, we called them on the ham radio, and said that since the tricolor was at the bottom of the Coral Sea, and the bow pulpit was squashed and the forward green & red nav lights not working (broken wires), they could come escort us in the last three miles (of the 65). Even that was embarrassing, but less so than an all day escort.

The authorities were very kind about it, allowing us to come into the marina straight away, and then they came down to clear us back in to Australia the next morning. We had set that up via VHF the night before. That was the end of the trip to New Caledonia for that year. [The season was spent on getting re-masted, repairing the dodger, port side lifelines, replacing bow pulpit, and all the running and standing rigging, plus a new radar. It was an expensive event. Informative, though, and for me somewhat traumatizing.]


Ann

[nonav]

Originally Posted by Statistical

The keyword for me is "repeatedly". I would help a neighbor being neighborly. Someone dragging repeatedly is not a good neighbor. They are someone who is careless and not worried about their impact on others. That is exactly the kind of person who would sue you under any pretense no matter how thin if there is a good chance of getting some money.

This line of though leaves out the possibility of an owner with little experience.

Plenty of ignorance , and or inexperience out there!

[OneBoatman]

Hello Cyanara, I think its usually 90% of the time if you happen to notice a boat not under command dragging you are usually among the spectators already comfortably at anchor. As for delivering a spare anchor I wouldn't think that would be part of the solution. I believe the poster's question was would you or should you try to help as may put you into a liability risk. As a boater for some years now not to be mean but I say it's probably not a good idea and not just from liability aspect but depending on the conditions a boat that is dragging is moving and sometimes swinging unnaturally as it tries to grab it is not easily approached for boarding. If nearby in a rubber dinghy you might consider trying to board it in order to quickly pay out more scope but then again you might bounce off a couple of times and you certainly don't want to still be around when she finds trouble. Surely it can be done, but generally anyone already at anchor isn't in a great position to do anything but report it to Harbor Patrol.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Not just there. Look at the last 3 weeks in Ottawa

Indeed... not just an American reality. We in Canada apparently have a fair number of "selfish a$$e$" as well.

[Dieseldude]

This could be an expensive issue to pay lawyers to argue. Is a vessel dragging anchor and unoccupied considered as abandoned at sea, and subject to salvage laws? Or since the anchor is attached, is it considered secured to a mooring? I think that Orion Jim's suggestion to notify harbour master or police would be the best course of action. It leaves the matter to officials who's responsibility it becomes. They are paid to handle such a situation. Of course the owner could be faced with a bill for recovering and securing the vessel. A private citizen could get in legal trouble for intervening though. Doing the owner a favor may not be well received. If the vessel is about to cause immediate harm or damage, immediate intervention might be legally justified. Would a court convict someone of a crime for taking action to save life or property? I have not studied law though.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Should you secure an unattended boat dragging repeatedly in an anchorage? Any liability in helping? Potential trespassing?

This happens occasionally here in the Caribbean. Four have gone walk-about in the harbors we frequent. I know of several others. We lost our mooring in Le Saints at 2:00 AM last week. Universally, the owners were exceptionally grateful to have their boat secured. This holds for dinghys too. I would not hesitate to rescue my neighbor’s ass.

I’m not particularly religious but the teachings are often more logical and to the point than our Laws and lawyers.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

This happens occasionally here in the Caribbean. Four have gone walk-about in the harbors we frequent. I know of several others. We lost our mooring in Le Saints at 2:00 AM last week. Universally, the owners were exceptionally grateful to have their boat secured. This holds for dinghys too. I would not hesitate to rescue my neighbor’s ass.

I’m not particularly religious but the teachings are often more logical and to the point than our Laws and lawyers.

Great point siting the biblical references. I'd not equated a vessel to a living possession such as a donkey to a boat. But both are means of transportation, so broadly match. It is interesting that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms opening statement says, "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:" It seems that biblical principles applied to such a situation would apply in Canada. According to the United States Pledge of Allegiance, they are one nation under God, so same principles should apply. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


Anywhere else in the world, one would have to know the local laws.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

This could be an expensive issue to pay lawyers to argue. ... A private citizen could get in legal trouble for intervening though. Doing the owner a favor may not be well received...

Agree. And, as previously noted, an owner could allege that what the good Samaritan did actually made things worse and led to the damage such that the Samaritan shares responsibility. As has also been noted, there are specific laws that protect good Samaritans in medical settings - the bar for "making things worse' is set extremely high. No one has claimed an analogous law for this kind of a setting.
Defies common sense and I am confident no one on this Forum would ever say or allege such a thing - but some lawyers will do anything to reduce their client's liability (and generate lots of billable hours).

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Great point siting the biblical references. I'd not equated a vessel to a living possession such as a donkey to a boat. But both are means of transportation, so broadly match. It is interesting that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms opening statement says, "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:" It seems that biblical principles applied to such a situation would apply in Canada. According to the United States Pledge of Allegiance, they are one nation under God, so same principles should apply. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


Anywhere else in the world, one would have to know the local laws.

Anywhere else in the world is as encumbered with the strangling regulation we suffer.

You might expect a letter of thanks from the CG in most of the Caribbean. I consider it common sense and can’t imagine the insurance carrier anything but ecstatic. Boats here are homes, not weekend toys.

One friend was away from their boat in Faulmouth last year. Conditions caused the chain hook to release from the chain. Chain ran out and the boat went adrift. The bitter end had also parted. Observant cruisers secured the boat to a mooring. A team of volunteers including a diver located the 250 feet of chain. We helped the owner get the bitter end back aboard and secured. Beer for all. No damage except ego. The alternative would have been damage to other bats, aground on a reef and endless discussions with agents and officials. No beer.

This is not rocket science and yet the topic repeats on this forum a couple times per year. There is just no possible reason other than personal physical risk to watch a fellow cruiser’s home destroyed. We are all too overly afraid of the boogeyman.

Most of the reasons against helping as I see them is rationalization for sitting on your can. If you want no intervention hang a sign on your boat. Many of us here have instead posted contact information and starting/operating instructions for the engine and windlass at the binnacle.

[Mike OReilly]

Curious... can anyone cite a legal case where a boater suffered legal or financial consequences for assisting another boater in the circumstances we're discussing? Even in litigious USA, do such cases exist?

[carstenb]

We’ve saved a number of dragging boats. One a swede was incensed when hefound out we hadboarded his reset his anchor. He claimed he was a very skilled sailor and he anchor could never have dragged
We were dinghies from3 boats that had helped savehis boat from going aground at Hivs Ora

Taina bay on Tahit. Two of us spent acouple of hours rescuing a 52 footer that dragged through the anchorage. No quedtion the owner knew someone had rescued it. We left it about 500 yards from where it was originally anchored. We saved his boat from dying on the reef. He never tried to find out who saved his boat. Ran into him again on Huahine and made sure I anchored far from him (crappy tiny CQR anchor)

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by carstenb

We’ve saved a number of dragging boats. One a swede was incensed when hefound out we hadboarded his reset his anchor. He claimed he was a very skilled sailor and he anchor could never have dragged
We were dinghies from3 boats that had helped savehis boat from going aground at Hivs Ora

Taina bay on Tahit. Two of us spent acouple of hours rescuing a 52 footer that dragged through the anchorage. No quedtion the owner knew someone had rescued it. We left it about 500 yards from where it was originally anchored. We saved his boat from dying on the reef. He never tried to find out who saved his boat. Ran into him again on Huahine and made sure I anchored far from him (crappy tiny CQR anchor)

Love the CQR reference. Worst POC ever and glad to be rid of the thing. Failed 1:5 sets. Our friends observed one leaving a harbor once. Pigeon Island harbor, Guadalupe. They let out 300 feet of Chain in 80 feet depth and stopped the yacht about a mile offshore. Next stop Venezuela.

[Bycrick]

You bet. I won’t give details on a public forum because it would be too easy to recognize who was involved. Just finished the last of three lawsuits after several years of litigation.

Another case several years ago, a Westsail 32 dragged into another boat. Damaged his bowsprit. Towed away and resecured. The next day, the owner arrived and refused help to resecure the mast because the forestay was loose. Two days later, the mast fell over. Three years in court and a mid-5-figure judgement.

Don’t ever underestimate the ability of someone to want to blame someone else for their problems.

It works both ways. I’ve seen people who damaged their dinghy "helping" someone who then wanted their dinghy fixed. And another case where the volunteer helper hurt himself and then tried to claim medical expenses.

None of these incidents were in the "litigious" US.

[Cynara]

We were in central America 1985 to 1988. There was no harbor master ot even any marinas. When someone was in trouble everyone in the Anchorage went to help. So I disagree with some of your comments. When we were in Costa Rica friends decided to sail to cocos island about 300 miles offshore took fuel out about 200 miles who had managed to pump all their fuel overboard because the fuel return line sprung a leak. I was amazed they were able to meet up because there was no GPS at the time. Everyone we met did what they could.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Anywhere else in the world is as encumbered with the strangling regulation we suffer.

You might expect a letter of thanks from the CG in most of the Caribbean. I consider it common sense and can’t imagine the insurance carrier anything but ecstatic. Boats here are homes, not weekend toys.

One friend was away from their boat in Faulmouth last year. Conditions caused the chain hook to release from the chain. Chain ran out and the boat went adrift. The bitter end had also parted. Observant cruisers secured the boat to a mooring. A team of volunteers including a diver located the 250 feet of chain. We helped the owner get the bitter end back aboard and secured. Beer for all. No damage except ego. The alternative would have been damage to other bats, aground on a reef and endless discussions with agents and officials. No beer.

This is not rocket science and yet the topic repeats on this forum a couple times per year. There is just no possible reason other than personal physical risk to watch a fellow cruiser’s home destroyed. We are all too overly afraid of the boogeyman.

Most of the reasons against helping as I see them is rationalization for sitting on your can. If you want no intervention hang a sign on your boat. Many of us here have instead posted contact information and starting/operating instructions for the engine and windlass at the binnacle.

Great to hear a story about an incident that could have been catastrophic, but had a happy ending instead. Note here though that the vessel was definitely adrift and unmanned. She would fall under laws governing salvage. A vessel attached to an anchor, though dragging it, could be an expensive legal battle of the owner chose to be contrary rather than appreciative. The owner could claim that she was moored. The rescuer would of course claim that she was adrift. One would expect that harbor master, coast guard, police, etc. would side on caution and not pursue action against the rescuer. Otherwise de-incentivizing rescuers will eventually lead to future disasters. A video clip showing the vessel drifting before any intervention might be prudent.