To Help or Not

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Love the CQR reference. Worst POC ever and glad to be rid of the thing. Failed 1:5 sets. Our friends observed one leaving a harbor once. Pigeon Island harbor, Guadalupe. They let out 300 feet of Chain in 80 feet depth and stopped the yacht about a mile offshore. Next stop Venezuela.

Thanks for the CQR reviews - it has Legendary holding power according to the marketing!

Taken from Force4 website.
Lewmar CQR Anchor Galvanised Steel
With legendary status for its superior performance, the CQR anchors drop forged construction increases its strength and reliability under load. Its hinged shank delivers consistent setting and holding even in the very worst conditions. The CQR anchor is guaranteed for life against breakage and has Lloyd''s Approval as a High Holding Power anchor.

[lestersails]

Uh oh. Now it has turned into another anchoring thread...

[Cynara]

We used one back in the 70s and 80s worked fine as long as you knew how to set it.. you couldn't zoom into an Anchorage, drop the hook and backup with full power. If you were in a hurry to get to the bar it was not for you

[nonav]

Originally Posted by Shrew

I've had a friend use a dinghy to push an unoccupied boat dragging down on us. He pushed it out of the way and past us. Then my wife and I caught it with lines as it was dragging past and rafted it to us.

Another occasion, a large unoccupied boat was dragging into an unoccupied two boat raft. I jumped on and fender the boats, then rafted the dragged boat to the two boat raft. I then went back to my boat to wait for anyone to show up. When the owner of the dragging boat came back first (alone) I went over, explained what happened and helped him re-anchor.

Feel free to sue me. i'm fairly sure between 'good Samaritan' laws and Marine Salvage laws, pressing charges will be a challenge.

One would hope so!

Years ago I dated a woman who managed a town marina, and I was a dock master for the summer.

She told me not to touch any lines of boats others had tied as we would be held liable.

Of course, many boats pulled up, handed you a painter, if you were lucky, and you secured the boat.

Eventually they said, retie any boat you think needs it, you’re not going to let any damage happen.

The only complaints were from a few folks who were less than adept tying up in a slip, noticed their lines had been touched, and felt as though they were being shown up.🙂

Where I work on and run boats now, nearly every owner/family knows me, and has given me permission to tend their boats if trouble is pending.

The percentage of Americans who act bullheaded seems pretty small.

I’d have to give a much larger nod to insurers creating issues with rendering help.

That really is a shame!

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Is a vessel dragging anchor and unoccupied considered as abandoned at sea, and subject to salvage laws? Or since the anchor is attached, is it considered secured to a mooring?

Take a look at "Sal-Con 89". This addresses the weird circle of theoretical legal philosophy that we seem to have floating around. After all, it's 2022, we are not the first people to ask these types of questions.

A vessel dragging anchor is considered 'underway'. An Unoccupied vessel is unoccupied. Under these conditions Salvage Rights Apply. Sal-Con 89 also addresses concepts such as liability. Short answer, in regards to Salvage there is very little liability on the part of the salvor.

Now, if you want to argue as to whether the vessel required salvage "Was it actually dragging?" Good luck proving it wasn't when your vessel was unoccupied. You had better find a witness willing to testify that it was 'secure' at the time of salvage.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Anywhere else in the world is as encumbered with the strangling regulation we suffer.

You might expect a letter of thanks from the CG in most of the Caribbean. I consider it common sense and can’t imagine the insurance carrier anything but ecstatic. Boats here are homes, not weekend toys.

One friend was away from their boat in Faulmouth last year. Conditions caused the chain hook to release from the chain. Chain ran out and the boat went adrift. The bitter end had also parted. Observant cruisers secured the boat to a mooring. A team of volunteers including a diver located the 250 feet of chain. We helped the owner get the bitter end back aboard and secured. Beer for all. No damage except ego. The alternative would have been damage to other bats, aground on a reef and endless discussions with agents and officials. No beer.

This is not rocket science and yet the topic repeats on this forum a couple times per year. There is just no possible reason other than personal physical risk to watch a fellow cruiser’s home destroyed. We are all too overly afraid of the boogeyman.

Most of the reasons against helping as I see them is rationalization for sitting on your can. If you want no intervention hang a sign on your boat. Many of us here have instead posted contact information and starting/operating instructions for the engine and windlass at the binnacle.

One reason why I have a chain stopper on deck.. once the anchors set and the snubber is fixed on I release a bit more chain to create a bight that sits just above the water then secure it with some stout rope to a deck cleat.. purpose being if the snubber parts/fails this prevents the shock going straight to the windlass, also, stops all the chain running out.

[sailbake]

I think it is Marine Law which applies - in particular salvage law. A yacht adrift is a potential salvage object.

From memory the legal principle is "No cure - no pay". Hence, if you you don't safely recover it you cannot claim salvage.

On the other hand, taking a vessel in tow implies the skipper of the towing vessel holds himself out to have the necessary knowledge, skill, experience and equipment to safely tow the vessel.

If the towed vessel is damaged in any way the skipper of the towing vessel may be liable.

All from (distant) memory and actual experience of an unsuccessful attempt by a trawler fishing vessel to convert an agreed tow into savage claim on my yacht.

Call the CG and it's then his job to explain why he didn't go to the aid of a vessel in distress.

[carstenb]

We helped a number of other boats aside from the two mentioned above and the owners have swung by with wine, beer and many thank yous

We have also chased down quite a few dinghies that decided to go walk about
Some owners gave us a bottle some barely said thanks

One looked at me very strangely when I knocked on his hull and asked if the dinghy i had in tow ( it had his boats name on it) was his. He looked at me like I had stolen it

Most are Very thankful. A few are idiots. We will always do everything we can to help a fellow boater

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by boatman61

One reason why I have a chain stopper on deck.. once the anchors set and the snubber is fixed on I release a bit more chain to create a bight that sits just above the water then secure it with some stout rope to a deck cleat.. purpose being if the snubber parts/fails this prevents the shock going straight to the windlass, also, stops all the chain running out.

No practical way to fit a chain stopper in my setup (short distance between anchor shank and windlass, plus the stopper would need to be on a 3+ inch tall block to line up with the chain). So I just cleat the chain off like the picture below. That way if the snubber fails, the load doesn't go to the windlass.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Agree. And, as previously noted, an owner could allege that what the good Samaritan did actually made things worse and led to the damage such that the Samaritan shares responsibility. As has also been noted, there are specific laws that protect good Samaritans in medical settings - the bar for "making things worse' is set extremely high. No one has claimed an analogous law for this kind of a setting.
Defies common sense and I am confident no one on this Forum would ever say or allege such a thing - but some lawyers will do anything to reduce their client's liability (and generate lots of billable hours).

In the UK if you have first Aid training from the St Johns Ambulance (Sorry for the very UK reference) but the point is they give full legal cover against any legal action resulting from one of their trained people having tried to apply their first aid training in a real situation, how can they afford this free cover? It’s very simple no one has ever successfully proven damages against a person trying to assist an emergency situation, and yes many of them have probably made things worse by a poor decision, but they tried and did what they thought was right at the time. Under extreme stress, and they were not the ones that started the issues they were dealing with.
Much like the RNLI in the UK. they come to assist a situation, they are only called upon to get someone else out of trouble if they can. They don’t start the situations, so are not going to be liable if it goes wrong.
Praise for all those who put themselves in harms way to assist others.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Take a look at "Sal-Con 89". This addresses the weird circle of theoretical legal philosophy that we seem to have floating around. After all, it's 2022, we are not the first people to ask these types of questions.

A vessel dragging anchor is considered 'underway'. An Unoccupied vessel is unoccupied. Under these conditions Salvage Rights Apply. Sal-Con 89 also addresses concepts such as liability. Short answer, in regards to Salvage there is very little liability on the part of the salvor.

Now, if you want to argue as to whether the vessel required salvage "Was it actually dragging?" Good luck proving it wasn't when your vessel was unoccupied. You had better find a witness willing to testify that it was 'secure' at the time of salvage.

Thanks Shrew, seems like you know the law on this, and you've settled this part of the discussion. It seems that the law will protect boat rescuers. This should help others who might face this dilemma.

[OneBoatman]

The owner of a boat having been observed to repeatedly drag it's anchor has somehow come out the other side able to lose a hold once again, aren't they already a bit bolder and luckier than many others. Being able to save her until next time would be a great story to share over cocktails. Perhaps their insurance company will give you a free years-worth of insurance. Imagine how the boat feels, not for the time you saved her while dragging, but for all the others. Fending is a job for fenders, do not put your hands or feet at risk when fending.

[Cynara]

I agree

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Thanks. That's what I was asking. It was alluded or suggested you were talking about somewhere in the USA, but your location identifier says "Canada."

In so many ways, the US is an outlier. I don't doubt the reality of your situation, but as you can see from most respondents, it just doesn't ring true to most who are outside the US.

I think your assumptions about the US are way off base! It sort of reminds me of when I was a USAF pilot and Navy pilots would tell me about all the screwed up ways we did things even though I’d never even heard of some of the things they claimed was USAF policy. But that didn’t stop them from being sure that they knew just how we did things! I know there’s a few who are more concerned about getting sued than doing the right thing but I never seem to meet them or see them. Or maybe lots of boaters really are that cynical and I’ve been really, really lucky to not meet them. I’ve gradually accumulated several boats I’ve saved or helped and it’s not like I’m going around looking for them or think my experience is atypical. Everything from going aboard and closing thru hulls on a sinking boat that already had settee cushions afloat (yes I was a little nervous about that one) to dinghying over to a nearby boat and closing a wide open hatch during a 24 hour period of torrential rains and 40+ knot winds, to dinghying out at 2AM to resecure 2 boats tied to harbor floats whose dock lines had chafed through in another 40 knot blow to going aboard a boat with an unsecured halyard with a shackle at the end swinging around hitting things to going aboard a boat because while paddle boarding through the harbor I heard a pump running constantly but no water coming out of boat so (after clearing with harbormaster who was busy at the time) once aboard I found the (hot!) pump under v berth and disconnected the wires and left note, and there’s several boats I’ve either towed or helped get unstuck from going aground, and just last summer someone came aboard my boat and shut off the LED dome light I leave on in the cockpit because they were concerned about my batteries getting run down. In every instance where I got involved the owners thanked me afterwards except for the sailboat breaking loose from harbor float because he had no other lines onboard so I used one of his jib sheets so he complained because it chafed. I explained it was blowing 40+ at the time and I was alone and 2 of his lines had already parted and there were no other lines available on his boat and if I hadn’t acted within minutes his boat surely was going to break free and go through a crowded inner harbor, bumping into several others ( including mine) until going aground. He still was not happy with me for wrecking his jib sheet. I even thanked the guy who shut off my dome light even though I purposely leave it on dim because I knew he was trying to be a good neighbor. But nobody has ever hinted that they were going to sue me and I’ve never spent an instant worrying about it.

Regarding the OP and his dragging anchor dilemma, I would have notified harbormaster or CG while keeping an eye on the boat and if they didn’t act pretty promptly I’d go aboard and try to figure out why it was dragging. It might just be inadequate scope and as long as there was adequate swinging room the problem could be remedied with nobody even knowing you’d done anything. I certainly wouldn’t worry about getting sued. I suspect that many of those in the anchorage who failed to secure the dragging sailboat may have either been unaware of the problem or less than confidant in their ability to help. My experience in the US boating community has been that almost everyone does what they can to help other boaters who are in need.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

No practical way to fit a chain stopper in my setup (short distance between anchor shank and windlass, plus the stopper would need to be on a 3+ inch tall block to line up with the chain). So I just cleat the chain off like the picture below. That way if the snubber fails, the load doesn't go to the windlass.

Your cleating off your chain on your Sampson post seems to be working for you but I’d worry I might not be able to free it up under high load without putting my fingers at risk. Another option would be to take about a 4’-6’ piece of Dyneema and splice an eye in one end. Use that eye to secure that end to post and then pass the Dyneema through a close by link in the chain and then cleated off back on the same Sampson post. It’s rigged like a second, very short snubber and functions a lot like a chain stopper because it has no stretch.