To Help or Not

[Oeanda]

As we know, the sea is out to get us. So we’d better stick together.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Wow, what a sad question to have to ask. I would hope most mariners would do what they could to assist, without putting themselves at undue risk of course. The boaters I've hung around with over my two decades as a sailor certainly would -- and have (including me at times).

Mike you are so right!

This is truly a very sad reality in the US.

I am proud to be American and to have served my country and her allies, BUT I am also very glad that I left the ConUS in 2019 and have no plans to return (other than to visit family). Between the lawyers and the lunatics, the country is quickly turning into a post-industrial dystopia of individual distrust and self-destruction.

I truly pity the people on the east coast of the US. I grew up in Maryland and cut my teeth on my grandfather's deadrise. He taught me that boaters were a tight community and always looked out and helped each other. Those days seem long gone, and a lot has changed in 4 decades since I last sailed there.

Cruisers in the Pac are a real community and rely on each other daily for spares, maintenance help, and yes...even boarding boats seen dragging anchor and doing everything possible to prevent it from washing up onto a reef.

Isn't it interesting that most people in the "civilized world" are completely self-absorbed and act uncivilized towards other people, while most people in 3rd-world (uncivilized) countries tend to be very civil and respectful of others?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

Ah, the difference between how the world (and its humans) actually is and how you think it should be. How many threads on this forum have posters complaining that "insurance is too expensive. I’m self-insured?" So when that person's boat sinks or burns, and they’re left with an underwater asset and potentially a big bill for cleanup or damage, their natural reaction is to find someone else to blame. Some examples that I’ve experienced first hand:



Boat grounded on shallows. He wants a tow but has no lines. I throw him a line and try to tow him off. The line breaks and he goes back on the ground. "Your line broke and the damage happened after that."



Boat catches fire. I give him my fire extinguisher. When the boat burns and sinks, "Your fire extinguisher wasn’t big enough to put out the fire."



Trying to tow a boat out of danger. Line comes off towed boat. Tow boat catches the line in the prop. Towed boat runs aground. "If you knew how to drive a boat, you’d not have run over the line."



Never underestimate the ability of somebody who’s made a mistake from trying to find somebody else to blame it on.

Are these actual experiences or “ perceived ones “ one is useful as a learning experience the other requires you to up your anxiety medicine

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

. . . Isn't it interesting that most people in the "civilized world" are completely self-absorbed and act uncivilized towards other people, while most people in 3rd-world (uncivilized) countries tend to be very civil and respectful of others?

Interesting and sad


But I would say that not all of the "civilized world" is the same. Europe is different from the U.S.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Interesting and sad

But I would say that not all of the "civilized world" is the same. Europe is different from the U.S.

And would suggest, so is Canada ... at least most of it/us .

For that matter, I think most Americans are also equally generous, welcoming and helpful. It is their system which seems to make it hard, but most Americans I've encounter -- just like most people from everywhere -- are good, generous individuals.

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Interesting and sad


But I would say that not all of the "civilized world" is the same. Europe is different from the U.S.

And I would say that not all people from any country are the same. It has been my experience in the US and Canada and Mexico, and in France, Italy and Israel, that most people are kind, generous, helpful and willing to help another person. Certainly there are some who are not. There does seem to be a trend, particularly in cities, for more people to be busy, rushed and self focused. But away from the maddening crowd that isn’t so. And isn’t that a big part of why we cruise away from the maddening crowd?

[Bycrick]

Goboatingnow — The anecdotes are all from direct, personal experience. They're not the only bad examples from cruising since 1980, rather the first three that came to mind while typing.

"most people are kind, generous, helpful and willing to help another person. Certainly there are some who are not." There are far more of the former than the latter. But it only takes one of the latter to get you thrown in jail or sued into bankruptcy.

In less-developed countries, the legal system is generally one of the less-developed parts. Hence there is less incentive to resort to legal solutions, because they’re involved, costly and you might not get the results you seek.

For every"solution" that is developed to solve a perceived problem, there are unwanted side effects. Look at the number of threads here where someone has a problem. "Go to small claims court. It’s cheap. You don’t need a lawyer." So, which side of the coin do you like? Small claims court:
1. Allows the filing of claims that otherwise wouldn’t be worth fighting over?
2. Gives the "little fellow" a chance?

[Donnybrook]

Is there a point where someone can claim salvage rights for securing a drifting vessel?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Donnybrook

Is there a point where someone can claim salvage rights for securing a drifting vessel?

I'm not sure but I think if the anchor is deployed you can't claim salvage rights.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Mike you are so right!

This is truly a very sad reality in the US.

I am proud to be American and to have served my country and her allies, BUT I am also very glad that I left the ConUS in 2019 and have no plans to return (other than to visit family). Between the lawyers and the lunatics, the country is quickly turning into a post-industrial dystopia of individual distrust and self-destruction.

I truly pity the people on the east coast of the US. I grew up in Maryland and cut my teeth on my grandfather's deadrise. He taught me that boaters were a tight community and always looked out and helped each other. Those days seem long gone, and a lot has changed in 4 decades since I last sailed there.

Cruisers in the Pac are a real community and rely on each other daily for spares, maintenance help, and yes...even boarding boats seen dragging anchor and doing everything possible to prevent it from washing up onto a reef.

Isn't it interesting that most people in the "civilized world" are completely self-absorbed and act uncivilized towards other people, while most people in 3rd-world (uncivilized) countries tend to be very civil and respectful of others?

This sentiment is just silly. "Where I come from people watch out for each other" Unlike where I'm from, where we're what, stepping over old ladies to slit your daughters throat?

This is silly ethnocentric thinking.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Maryland trespass law, seemingly most relevant portion thereof:

There's more to it, I suggest leaving lawyering to lawyers, ie: if necessary to protect your own or other's property, it really may not be trespass
You can't honestly be expected to sit there and watch another boat drag into your yours

But there may be potential liability once you take control of the boat, then what happens to it afterwards may become your responsibility.

[Love2 boat]

So I started reading the thread just because I was interested to see where it would end.


My thoughts are this - most if not all of you replying have more than 10 years experience and have run into issues and have been on the receiving side of compassion. I believe part of the issue could be newer sailors / yachty's not having the experience or empathy for others in need. Almost like it is an inconvenience - it my world it can be a learned behavior depending on your interest level.


Many newer boat owners are getting into boating for the wrong reasons and cannot be bothered with the inconvenience of stopping and helping others - especially since in their minds they will never get into trouble.


My thought is the longer they are boating the more empathy they will have towards others and their boats.


I see the same behaviors with my house neighbors - the longer you live in a neighborhood the more likely you will know them. But I have neighbors that drive into their garages and shut the door before you could even walk up and introduce yourself. They way of the world right now is different than the way I grew up...

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Should you secure an unattended boat dragging repeatedly in an anchorage? Any liability in helping? Potential trespassing?

Real world answer is that it is situational. I err on the side of helping people or at least offering. I have boarded other people's boats occasionally where there was a compelling reason to do so and no other way to help. I've taken boats adrift in tow, twice, small ones.



I don't think the legal jeopardy is as serious as described. I like to leave a note and sign it when I board someone else's vessel. That way if there is a question or problem later it's clear I wasn't trying to be surreptitious. Take pictures, take video, make a call on 16. Write in your ship's log. Create evidence that makes it clear what the problem was and why and how you intervened. Make it clear your motive is to help others and not to avoid, say, having to move your boat.


In places where there's a harbormaster or water patrol that deals with stuff, sure, involve them. I go to remote places that don't have those.

[Bycrick]

Read, at least, the Wikipedia entry on maritime salvage. I don’t think there’s anything there about the anchor. Simply, the boat has to be in real danger. You have to volunteer. If there’s any question as to whether the danger was real, you have to prove it was.

You have to go to court to claim salvage. If you ultimately were awarded salvage, you have to pay to collect it.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Love2 boat

My thoughts are this - most if not all of you replying have more than 10 years experience and have run into issues and have been on the receiving side of compassion. I believe part of the issue could be newer sailors / yachty's not having the experience or empathy for others in need. Almost like it is an inconvenience - it my world it can be a learned behavior depending on your interest level.

I have written before, and continue to believe, that the mutual-aid culture has been undermined by the ubiquity of cell phones and by services like Sea Tow that have commercialized assistance.



I think that the more experienced, more well-traveled sailor is more likely to realize that the commercial and governmental services aren't the best answer in many situations.