Van de Stadt thoughts?

[DewTheDewDude]

Hey guys,

I'm in the market for a new vessel and I'm torn between a Downeaster 38' and a Van de Stadt 45. They are both similarly priced, which concerns me for a boat that much bigger.

Done quite a bit of googling with very little results in regards to the Van de Stadt.

Do any of you have experience with them? They seem like fine vessels. Are they blue water capable? With speed and comfort?

Any input would be great because I can't seem to find any.

Here is the boat I'm looking at:

1978 Van De Stadt 45 Cruiser Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Any red flags?

I'm going to be hitting the Caribbean with it and some bigger blue water passages.
It doesn't have a full keel so I'm curious about it's big ocean dependability.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Polux]

Vand de Stadt was one of the great designers of that era and his designs were solid bluewater boats. However Vand de Stadt is not a brand but a designer and his boats were made by many shipyards and home built too.

That one is not home built and that is a good sign but it was made by a South African Shipyard: Halstead Marine

So I would say that the information you need is not about the boat design (that is good for that time) but about the shipyard, Halstead Marine.

I cannot help you there, maybe someone can.

[double u]

...suggest reading up about yachtdesign if you haven't heard about vds designs...(is a little bit like not knowing port & starboard...)

[brianlara 3]

Without looking at the specs of the particular Downeaster you are looking at it's hard to compare the two.
I looked for Halstead Marine and there is no listing for it at sailboatdata.com That in itself is most unusual. Without further research I can't tell if Halstead built 2 boats or 200.
From a pedigree point of view the Downeaster seems to blitz this particular Vander Stadt design. As Pollux said, this prolific and much respected company was a design studio only.
If I recall correctly VDS DID build the very first production fibreglass boats ever made but they soon became a design studio only.
The Halstead boat does and also does not read particularly brilliantly with main and genoa both repaired in ?? 2014. The motor "is in good running order"so their story goes. As an ex-mechanic, a motor described as such but with gleaming paint is a turn off. Painting rocker covers etc with a pressure-pac can doesn't make a motor good. Any new paint on a car, boat or house is, for me, cause for suspicion. And there is no mention of ground tackle other than "plenty of anchors". Windlass and chain not mentioned.
Having looked at the VDS on the net, and knowing nothing at all about the Downeaster, I think that if it were me I'd be having a good look at the d/e and if the sails, rigging and motor were all excellent then for reasons of pedigree alone I'd have already 90% made my mind up before I even sighted the vds. Frankly, I'd have to be in truly desperate need for a bigger boat before I'd pass on the d/e.
I think you need to research Halstead to see if they have any sort of reputation because d/e sure do.
Imo, the sails and motor alone are suspect (only, no proof) on the vds.
It's just possible the there is a very good reason why 2 boats, one with nearly double the volume of the other, are the same price.
Fwiw.

[DewTheDewDude]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

Without looking at the specs of the particular Downeaster you are looking at it's hard to compare the two.
I looked for Halstead Marine and there is no listing for it at sailboatdata.com That in itself is most unusual. Without further research I can't tell if Halstead built 2 boats or 200.
From a pedigree point of view the Downeaster seems to blitz this particular Vander Stadt design. As Pollux said, this prolific and much respected company was a design studio only.
If I recall correctly VDS DID build the very first production fibreglass boats ever made but they soon became a design studio only.
The Halstead boat does and also does not read particularly brilliantly with main and genoa both repaired in ?? 2014. The motor "is in good running order"so their story goes. As an ex-mechanic, a motor described as such but with gleaming paint is a turn off. Painting rocker covers etc with a pressure-pac can doesn't make a motor good. Any new paint on a car, boat or house is, for me, cause for suspicion. And there is no mention of ground tackle other than "plenty of anchors". Windlass and chain not mentioned.
Having looked at the VDS on the net, and knowing nothing at all about the Downeaster, I think that if it were me I'd be having a good look at the d/e and if the sails, rigging and motor were all excellent then for reasons of pedigree alone I'd have already 90% made my mind up before I even sighted the vds. Frankly, I'd have to be in truly desperate need for a bigger boat before I'd pass on the d/e.
I think you need to research Halstead to see if they have any sort of reputation because d/e sure do.
Imo, the sails and motor alone are suspect (only, no proof) on the vds.
It's just possible the there is a very good reason why 2 boats, one with nearly double the volume of the other, are the same price.
Fwiw.

Thank you very much for your input and pointing out those red flags. Your right I should have posted the DE as well.. so here it is

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Downeaster-38-Cutter-Ketch-2982795/Deltaville/VA/United-States

Let me know what you think.

Everything looks great with it but my concerns are with the engine which was replaced in 1990 which seems so long ago. What do you think?

Thanks again and any input on the Downeaster would be great too!

[sy_gilana]

We love our Van De Stadt, but, they are only a design bureau, depends on the builder.
The design will be sound.

[brianlara 3]

THUNDERBIRD Marine in Sidney B.C. have a VDS Phoenix 42 for sale, built by Halstead Marine in South Africa. Seems to be the same boat but whereas the MD boat has a stoopway into the aft sections, the Canadian boat has rear cabin access from the cockpit only.
That said, the aft sections of the MD boat (which are small) are taken up with electrical equipment and a workshop bench which has a power saw on top.
Seems to me that the MD boat is going to be a smaller boat than a Downeaster given that the back of the VDS is quite possibly useful for little other than storage and workshop space.
It appears on the face of things that the d/e is a better boat than the vds....subject to inspection of course.
The Halstead boat in BC is CAD $50,000.

[DewTheDewDude]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

THUNDERBIRD Marine in Sidney B.C. have a VDS Phoenix 42 for sale, built by Halstead Marine in South Africa. Seems to be the same boat but whereas the MD boat has a stoopway into the aft sections, the Canadian boat has rear cabin access from the cockpit only.
That said, the aft sections of the MD boat (which are small) are taken up with electrical equipment and a workshop bench which has a power saw on top.
Seems to me that the MD boat is going to be a smaller boat than a Downeaster given that the back of the VDS is quite possibly useful for little other than storage and workshop space.
It appears on the face of things that the d/e is a better boat than the vds....subject to inspection of course.
The Halstead boat in BC is CAD $50,000.

Thank you very much for your input! Most appreciated. I'm actually about to get a survey done on the DE which could be a deciding factor.

Part of the reason I liked the VDS was because of the aft cabin but with it's relatively small demensions, that could be a deal breaker. All though a work shop area could be cool.

It's crazy that you say the VDS would be smaller than the DE, is that just in regards of ballast?

Also what are your preference on keels? Fin to full? Figured the full keel would be very comfy in the open ocean with less speed and the fin for speed? Would the fin keel not be blue water worthy?

Thanks again and happy new years!

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by DewTheDewDude

Thank you very much for your input! Most appreciated. I'm actually about to get a survey done on the DE which could be a deciding factor.

Part of the reason I liked the VDS was because of the aft cabin but with it's relatively small demensions, that could be a deal breaker. All though a work shop area could be cool.

It's crazy that you say the VDS would be smaller than the DE, is that just in regards of ballast?

Also what are your preference on keels? Fin to full? Figured the full keel would be very comfy in the open ocean with less speed and the fin for speed? Would the fin keel not be blue water worthy?

Thanks again and happy new years!

Happy New Year DTDD.
Thanks for your reply.
There are many people on CF who are much more knowledgable than me. AND more experienced as well.
But with regard to keels, it seems to me that it is impossible to loose the righting ballast of the DE. No matter how many reefs or comtainers you nudge you aren't going to loose your keel. And despite the DE's increased wetted surface a full keel must track better than any fin.
Additionally, I suspect others here would like to see the rudder of the VDS supported my some kind of skeg, but it isn't. It relies on shaft diameter alone to not break or bend.. Surely a whale or whatever could cause the hull/keel join to sustain damage. Imho, a no brainer, integral beats bolted on all day!
With regard to size. The DE has a beam of 11' 10". The VDS has a beam of 11' 4" . Those figures increase the volume of the DE given that the beam is not tucked in at all. As well, it seems that the DE has a longer ( relative) waterline length.
The beam of the DE is carried well aft....wider stern.
Wheras the beam of the VDS is tucked in very tightly, almost to the extent of the old S&S IOR designs. Which makes the VDS a marginally faster boat, albeit at the expense of "hull form stability/ righting moment.
Ive never seen either of these boats but after years of lurking at sailboatdata.com Iv'e picked up a bit (little). I suspect that a wander through both boats would show the DE as a much better cruising option, esp considering the different rigs and keels. And probably very close to the same volume (vol of a sphere).
Yes, a workshop would be lovely. But so would, to me, be a prestigious pedigree with regard to reputation and numbers of boats built. And if I recall correctly the DE is a cutter rig but the VDS isnt. To me, that is pretty priceless given that furled genoas are known to NOT claw off lee shores very well. With the cutter, furl the genoa and bash into it under stays'l and reefed main.
I spent hours searching in South African locations looking for links to Halstead Marine. Found nothing.....there is one Phoenix in Phuket for $10,000 but that boat is a nightmare, by admission the vendor.
I suspect that to many here on CF that the DE would be worth substantially more money than the VDS. Some will disagree of course.
VDS have a proud reputation of designing fast hulls, but this old fella would rather 'round Cape Horn in the DE.
Fwiw. Cheers Brother/Sister. And good fortune.