Ways solo sail into slip safely

[Don C L]

So, another trick in backing out, which I am sure many here already know, some years back I had to help get my friend's Cheoy Lee 30 out of a downwind slip at midnight with a 15 kt breeze blowing it down. The full keel will not back up well, especially in a breeze. So I tied a light nylon line on a tennis ball and heaved it across the fairway. (of course I could have used a dinghy too, but none available.) On the 3rd or fourth try it was close enough to reach with a pole from the docks on the opposite side. I pulled the line across dragging a heavier line of course and put a big loose bowline on a cleat. Pulling the boat across upwind was easy, I walked the line amidhips so the boat was broadside to the wind, gave the line a whip to free the loop and motored out without drama. I think I would have done well to have one of those balloon launchers for rocketing the heaving line next time.
The whole process can be reversed, sort of, if one had to gently lower a boat into a downwind slip in a big wind without scratching it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I started sailing in my teens. I'm 62 now. You do the math.

I don't own a boat and my local charter marina doesn't allow it. Were I to have a situation in their boat where the auxiliary engine was disabled and I was unable to get back to the berth except under sail, I would call for assistance and sail to the public dock. Which, by the way, I HAVE INDEED sailed to and tied up at. Strangely, it usually requires that I go upwind when approaching the dock. Funny how that works in real life instead of on internet forums where experts abound with contrary "knowledge."

You Boob is filled with videos of sailboats doing all kinds of things. Some of it is even helpful at times. If you actually watch them.

For the sake of some other beginners reading this thread, that they not be misled --

What you have described, with such bravada, might work on good days in a Sunfish or Laser or mayba a Catalina 22 and with a light wind coming from the right direction. A lot of us on here, including me, spent many years or decades racing dinghies without engines, so quite a bit of experience sailing in and out of all kinds of situations, including docks.

But what you write is totally inapplicable to berthing a normal cruising boat, and I daresay a person who had sailed a normal cruising boat on or off a dock even once could never write the kind of stuff you have. Many of us, including me, have actually done that too, and probably not voluntarily. It is NOTHING like berthing with a motor, and the banal basic stuff like going slow is not even the beginning of the technique you have to have, in order to do it successfully, and in order to recognize the difference between the conditions where it's possible and where it's not.

No offense, but to an experienced person, what you wrote sounds just like "Landing a 747 is no problem; just point it at the runway and don't run into the control tower."

[Fullbore]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For the sake of some other beginners reading this thread, that they not be misled --

What you have described, with such bravada, might work on good days in a Sunfish or Laser or mayba a Catalina 22 and with a light wind coming from the right direction. A lot of us on here, including me, spent many years or decades racing dinghies without engines, so quite a bit of experience sailing in and out of all kinds of situations, including docks.

But what you write is totally inapplicable to berthing a normal cruising boat, and I daresay a person who had sailed a normal cruising boat on or off a dock even once could never write the kind of stuff you have. Many of us, including me, have actually done that too, and probably not voluntarily. It is NOTHING like berthing with a motor, and the banal basic stuff like going slow is not even the beginning of the technique you have to have, in order to do it successfully, and in order to recognize the difference between the conditions where it's possible and where it's not.

No offense, but to an experienced person, what you wrote sounds just like "Landing a 747 is no problem; just point it at the runway and don't run into the control tower."

Amen. Fully agree!

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For the sake of some other beginners reading this thread, that they not be misled --

What you have described, with such bravada, might work on good days in a Sunfish or Laser or mayba a Catalina 22 and with a light wind coming from the right direction. A lot of us on here, including me, spent many years or decades racing dinghies without engines, so quite a bit of experience sailing in and out of all kinds of situations, including docks.

But what you write is totally inapplicable to berthing a normal cruising boat, and I daresay a person who had sailed a normal cruising boat on or off a dock even once could never write the kind of stuff you have. Many of us, including me, have actually done that too, and probably not voluntarily. It is NOTHING like berthing with a motor, and the banal basic stuff like going slow is not even the beginning of the technique you have to have, in order to do it successfully, and in order to recognize the difference between the conditions where it's possible and where it's not.

No offense, but to an experienced person, what you wrote sounds just like "Landing a 747 is no problem; just point it at the runway and don't run into the control tower."

What you say is true.
As far as this thread is concerned, the OP, changed their minds from sailing into a slip, to motoring into the slip.
They aren't interested in sailing into the slip as previously mentioned.
SV Cloud Duster

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

What you say is true.
As far as this thread is concerned, the OP, changed their minds from sailing into a slip, to motoring into the slip.
They aren't interested in sailing into the slip as previously mentioned.
SV Cloud Duster

It was actually the OP's innocent mistake which the OP acknowledged early on in the thread.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I started sailing in my teens. I'm 62 now. You do the math.


I don't own a boat and my local charter marina doesn't allow it. Were I to have a situation in their boat where the auxiliary engine was disabled and I was unable to get back to the berth except under sail, I would call for assistance and sail to the public dock. Which, by the way, I HAVE INDEED sailed to and tied up at. Strangely, it usually requires that I go upwind when approaching the dock. Funny how that works in real life instead of on internet forums where experts abound with contrary "knowledge."

It's notable that you have avoided the key question regarding your experience that would qualify you for an opinion in this matter:

For the record:
How many times have you sailed a cruising boat into a berth?
(Not just sailing a dinghy up to a public dock in gentle conditions)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For the sake of some other beginners reading this thread, that they not be misled --

What you have described, with such bravada, might work on good days in a Sunfish or Laser or mayba a Catalina 22 and with a light wind coming from the right direction. A lot of us on here, including me, spent many years or decades racing dinghies without engines, so quite a bit of experience sailing in and out of all kinds of situations, including docks.

But what you write is totally inapplicable to berthing a normal cruising boat, and I daresay a person who had sailed a normal cruising boat on or off a dock even once could never write the kind of stuff you have.

Absolutely!

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For the sake of some other beginners reading this thread, that they not be misled --

What you have described, with such bravada, might work on good days in a Sunfish or Laser or mayba a Catalina 22 and with a light wind coming from the right direction. A lot of us on here, including me, spent many years or decades racing dinghies without engines, so quite a bit of experience sailing in and out of all kinds of situations, including docks.

But what you write is totally inapplicable to berthing a normal cruising boat, and I daresay a person who had sailed a normal cruising boat on or off a dock even once could never write the kind of stuff you have. Many of us, including me, have actually done that too, and probably not voluntarily. It is NOTHING like berthing with a motor, and the banal basic stuff like going slow is not even the beginning of the technique you have to have, in order to do it successfully, and in order to recognize the difference between the conditions where it's possible and where it's not.

No offense, but to an experienced person, what you wrote sounds just like "Landing a 747 is no problem; just point it at the runway and don't run into the control tower."

1. If this is true, then why do so many advocate learning how to sail by starting with a dingy? Perhaps it's because the skills learned transfer directly over to "cruising" boats.

2. Since WHEN is a 28 ft Hunter not a "cruising boat"? Or a 36 ft Catalina? Or any of the other "cruising" boat's I've been on over the decades?

3. If you knew how to fly, then you'd know that landing a 747 isn't any different than landing a Cessna 152. It's bigger and more complex, but the exact same principles apply. You don't want to crash so you do it slowly, carefully, by the numbers and following the checklist, and at the slowest speed the aircraft can safely maneuver without stalling while giving yourself as much lead time as you can to abort and go around.

The complexity of the aircraft doesn't change the principles on how it stays in the air. Nor does the size and weight of a small boat vis a vis a large boat change how either stays on the surface of the water, turns in response to rudder input, or ties up at the dock. The mass may be greater, but the principles never change.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by StuM

It's notable that you have avoided the key question regarding your experience that would qualify you for an opinion in this matter:

For the record:
How many times have you sailed a cruising boat into a berth?
(Not just sailing a dinghy up to a public dock in gentle conditions)

I don't know, I never bothered to keep track. I don't have years and years of experience, but that doesn't mean I haven't ever done it more than a few times.

When I was 16/17 I sailed every day on weekends over the summer for those 2 summers. Sometimes it was in a dingy, sometimes it was on what you call a "cruiser."

Here's the real question: Why is it that you assume that, because I took the classes for the certification so I could charter, I didn't know how to sail before taking the ASA classes?

[fourlyons]

Dockhead, I normally look to your posts for their intelligence and thoughtfulness. What is it about this subject that has you being borderline insulting?

Do you have personal experience seeing or hearing first hand of the Pardeys and other engineless sailors getting tows to get into harbor, as you claimed earlier? And what does it prove? If not, why repeat this?

You asked Rob about his experience. I kept my heavy, 25', engineless cutter in Shilshoal Marina in Seattle for three years, sailing in and out all the time. I now have a 40' cat ketch and own a slip at Anchorage Marina in Baltimore, I have sailed in and out there a number of times. I now have an engine; as others have noted, you have to pick your conditions carefully to do this.

I don't get the heated response from many people on this subject. We see it dependably whenever Sean, the engineless circumnavigator on this forum, encourages engineless sailing.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And this is based on -- what? How much experience?


How many times have you sailed a cruising boat into a berth?


Can you show videos to illustrate these principles, or are they armchair-devised?

[fourlyons]

Stu, where exactly does that line in experience lie to "qualify" for an opinion? I need to know how to look this up before I post in future on other subjects. Indeed, this one as well.

Originally Posted by StuM

It's notable that you have avoided the key question regarding your experience that would qualify you for an opinion in this matter:

For the record:
How many times have you sailed a cruising boat into a berth?
(Not just sailing a dinghy up to a public dock in gentle conditions)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

1. If this is true, then why do so many advocate learning how to sail by starting with a dingy? Perhaps it's because the skills learned transfer directly over to "cruising" boats. . . .

I learned on dinghies (raced them for years), and advocate learning on dinghies. However, relatively little of what you learn on dinghies "transfers directly" to keelboats. The one thing does not follow logically from the other.

Originally Posted by Rob_P

2. Since WHEN is a 28 ft Hunter not a "cruising boat"? Or a 36 ft Catalina? Or any of the other "cruising" boat's I've been on over the decades?

How many times have you berthed either of these boats in a marina under sail?

Originally Posted by Rob_P

3. If you knew how to fly, then you'd know that landing a 747 isn't any different than landing a Cessna 152. It's bigger and more complex, but the exact same principles apply. You don't want to crash so you do it slowly, carefully, by the numbers and following the checklist, and at the slowest speed the aircraft can safely maneuver without stalling while giving yourself as much lead time as you can to abort and go around.

And there is a lot more to landing a plane than these banal, and incorrectly stated points.


The correct landing speed of any given plane is not indeed the slowest speed you can fly without stalling, just like bare steerageway is not the correct speed for berthing a boat. So not only is that not the main thing about landing a plane, but it's not even a thing at all. It would be just as foolish to say "just fly as slow as you can", as it is to say that coming in as slow as possible is all you need to know about berthing. The stall speed of a Cessna 172 in normal configuration and with flaps extended is 54MPH. But the "normal landing speed" for the same aircraft with flaps extended is 65-75 mph, 20% to 39% greater than the stall speed.


For similar reasons, it is incorrect to berth a boat, whether using a motor or sails, at the slowest possible speed. A certain amount of momentum is needed, and the more wind or current you have to overcome, the more momentum is required. Judging the right speed is one of the significant challenges. With a very small boat all you need to do is get within grabbing distance of a cleat or a piling, then you can manhandle the boat the rest of the way. Another extremely important factor is whether or not you can back the mainsail with the strength of your crew. This greatly simplifies the job and greatly increases your options berthing under sail (or using a motor, for that matter). With a keel boat of substantial tonnage, where you can neither manhandle the boat into the berth nor back the mainsail by main force, the task is entirely different, and is impossible under a wide range of conditions including crew resources, wind strength and direction, current, width of the berthing place.

Originally Posted by Rob_P

The complexity of the aircraft doesn't change the principles on how it stays in the air. Nor does the size and weight of a small boat vis a vis a large boat change how either stays on the surface of the water, turns in response to rudder input, or ties up at the dock. The mass may be greater, but the principles never change.

How the boat stays in the water and turns in response to rudder input is hardly 1% of the different factors which go into berthing a boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I don't know, I never bothered to keep track. I don't have years and years of experience, but that doesn't mean I haven't ever done it more than a few times.. .

No who has ever sailed a cruising boat of any tonnage into a marina berth without a functioning motor, will ever forget the experience, even those of us with decades of cruising boat ownership and hundreds of thousands of miles of experience.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not credible.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Here's the real question: Why is it that you assume that, because I took the classes for the certification so I could charter, I didn't know how to sail before taking the ASA classes?

Maybe because you said:

"Newbie here.

Currently no boat and I haven't sailed for about 15 years and the last time I did I was just rail meat for a Saturday regatta on a 36' Catalina. It wasn't much fun because I was seasick for most (not all) of it, but I do remember having fun sailing a dingy as a teen 40 some odd years ago and a couple of J-boat excursions after that.

I did take a basic sailing dingy class a couple of years ago but the school didn't like the fact that my spine is fragile so they wouldn't let me continue on with the larger boats in their fleet."

Then there was this whole thread where you apparently docked a boat under power for the first time.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3327903


Or this one, where you said "I'm a new sailor taking lessons in a Catalina 22." https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3362395

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No who has ever sailed a cruising boat of any tonnage into a marina berth without a functioning motor, will ever forget the experience, even those of us with decades of cruising boat ownership and hundreds of thousands of miles of experience.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not credible.

This!