What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

[Westcliffe01]

Getting my teeth fixed after running it at 9kt in chop would be far too expensive... Its clearly a fair weather boat and if you got into really bad weather with a rocky lee shore, you would be in trouble.... That may appeal to many who will never be more than a few hours away from the dock but one can obviously do better for the money... but not new...

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Westcliffe01 plenty of flat bottomed OVNI's have sailed around the world, the review below does mention some slamming. Still if you are doing 9.4 knots in a 30 footer you can't complain to much!
Just look at the RM890 sail, looks good to me......

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Getting my teeth fixed after running it at 9kt in chop would be far too expensive... Its clearly a fair weather boat and if you got into really bad weather with a rocky lee shore, you would be in trouble.... That may appeal to many who will never be more than a few hours away from the dock but one can obviously do better for the money... but not new...

Westcliffe01, If you were in really bad weather on a rocky lee shore, at least with this boat you could get off of that lee shore. It will go to weather even in the really bad stuff. You won't have a big genoa and maybe not a full main and you won't be going 9.5 knots, more like 4.5 kts, and it will pound, but you will get off that shore. Trust that the French know how to make a sailboat that sails.

On the other hand, take a heavy crab crusher, which may never pound, (but hobby horse? Yes) and you'd better hope the engine runs, because far too many of those boats will not sail off a lee shore in bad weather or even calm weather and in any case the owners never sail anyhow and don't know how.

And I have to say that so many of the 30-36 racer/cruisers which can be got for a song, the Pearsons, Petersons, and so many others, will also sail off a lee shore. And you can get a two cabin layout, with enclosed head, full galley, good headroom, nice cockpit, and people will almost pay you to take them. Single men in California with little resources, buy them all the time and show up here in Mexico without putting a dime into them, then, since they have so little invested, when girl friend calls and says, "come home honey" just leave them. That's sad.

[IslandInfedel]

Originally Posted by Little Otter

See to me that is incomprehensible. What's the point of living if you never go off the beaten path and get to feel some adrenaline? and you can't do that from the comfort of your couch.

I agree.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In the old days, people sailed these boats for entertainment in weekends and vacations, or took the big step and sailed a Transatlantic circuit or even circumnavigated etc. but they did not live aboard permanently like we do. They need laundry service, either supermarkets nearby or eat cold beans straight from cans, dock side faucets for water, etc.

There are people who like living like primitive camping but most people will prefer a washing machine, a galley that can produce real meals with ingredients from fridges and freezers as well as from cans and so on

People have been living aboard and crossing oceans for hundreds of years.

Laundry has always been better to do ashore if you’re able and there is a machine at the marina or a close by laundry service, even larger boats only have those mini euro washers, if you’re making a crossing do what you have to do, however some change and having EVERYTHING done in one shot is much better if you can, plus better to put the wear on a industrial machine than a onboard mini

Fridge, that’s something you can put on about any boat you could live on

As someone who had a commercial wolf range with salamander dual ovens, frankly I’m not nearly enough of a cook to care, a two burner top is more than enough for my culinary aspirations lol

I’d say if you are a big “foodie” land life historically always will go better with that in my opinion

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Little Otter

Yeah, I just can't get into a lot of the new, big boats. They look ok, but they seem more designed for sipping sundowners at the dock than actually sailing, and that just doesn't appeal much to me.

That's because that's what most of them are used for.

That's why I am more interested in the older boats from the 1960s, more geared to sailing than anchored life and/or dock life.

[El Pinguino]

If they could sell them - small yachts - the builders would build them....

In the mid 90's I was speaking to the sales manager at Westerly Yacht construction... just before they went under for the very last time... he said that you simply could not sell a new boat 36 feet or under in the UK.... that was why they no longer built them...

There is obviously a niche market for boats like the RM....

Suitability of RMs and Ovnis for long distance cruising? I have met two RMs in Patagonia and Ovnis of assorted length are best described as common down there ... along with similar hard chine alloy yachts of the same ilk.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

It has to do with the total cost of ownership. You can find good boats, well maintained and well equipped at any length above 30’ (below that headroom becomes an issue). Low thirties is good for 1-2 people, but larger is just more convenient. Now, I’m terms of cost of ownership, you can get a small boat in great condition for $20-25K, put in another $10K and you have a boat that can go anywhere. However, most of the time you stay in the marina, that is $10K/year. Add another $5K for maintenance, that is $15k/year. If you will be spending that much money, you might as well get a $150k boat, finance it at 6%, that is only $10k per year additional. It just does not make sense to spend $15k/year on a $25k boat. Hence, most people who go into boating get bigger boats. Because they can.

I paid $10k for my first sailboat, which was trailerable. Only stayed a couple of times in a marina in Key West, kept it on the trailer the rest of the time. Maintenance was close to zero. Replaced a few parts that I broke learning things and changed gear oil in the two stroke outboard. Sold it through a broker three years later for $7500 after commissions. Total cost of ownership was about $1000 a year excluding cost of fuel to tow it (two times from upstate NY to FL and a few times to RI plus multiple trips to Lake Ontario and Finger Lakes). It was one of the happiest periods of my life. Cruised to Nantucket, Martha’s Vineyard, Block Island, and twice to the Keys and Dry Tortugas. The boat was known as a “styrofoam cup” or “Clorox bottle,” but it did not matter, for I was young and did not need all the modern conveniences and comfort. I hardly had any money that time too, so $150k was out of my world. “Real boats” were going for about $70k those days, which was astronomical for me then.

[Tillsbury]

Here's another view. Back in the 70s and 80s, a 30-footer was perhaps "affordable" (although still a significant chunk of the price of a house if not more), but anything bigger tended to be custom and stupendously expensive.

I learnt to sail on a 28' and regularly chartered 30-35 foot boats. Occasionally we'd end up on a Rival 38 or Westerly 38 when there were a few of us and these were considered huge.

When I was in the market to buy a boat, I was looking seriously at the Moody 38 and others in the 35-39 foot range. I happened to have a contact into Westerly and ended up getting a good deal on a 41, which for everyone I knew at the time was considered enormous. There was a Westerly 48 in the marina, which we all thought of as some kind of superyacht and surely never attainable.

In the intervening decades, 40-foot and 50-foot boats became far more affordable because they were being build in volume. That's the difference.

Now we see a huge number of boats up to 30 years old in the 40-50 foot range and they are available at many price points. Sailing them makes you realise that they aren't in any way more difficult than a 28-footer, and in many ways they're a heap easier (I've never had to swap headsails in a severe chop with stiff bronze piston hanks while hanging on recently).

So naturally there are lot more 40+ foot boats out there, as people have gradually realised they're just as easy if not easier to sail than a smaller one, and they're certainly faster and more comfortable at sea and many times more so at anchor. If you're concerned that anything over 35 feet is not suitable for single-handing, that just means you haven't tried it. It's very easy indeed on a well set-up modern boat, and getting easier.

There are now plenty of 50-60 foot production boats for sale, and I'm guessing that in 20 years time they will be thought of as not much more boat than a 40-footer.

[Enfant Du Vent]

Originally Posted by Little Otter

Adelie, building a boat and sailing her around the world has always been a dream of mine. We haven't had kids yet, and I promised my wife I would wait until they were in college before I left on my adventure. It will be many years still until I can go see the world and I plan to use that time to sail her on the local lake and coastal cruising, building my confidence and trust with whatever boat I choose.

Ahoy Little Otter:
...only after kids are in college..... = you've got some time to work this out. I'd suggest you move from Cumming to the coast ASAP so you'll have the chance to experience salt water sailing/cruising.



For 10 years I had a 32' cruising boat but never got more than 2-3 week vacations; and that was very frustrating. It was only after I "retired" that I got to sail from Eastern Canada to Florida / the Bahamas / and one passage back to Canada via Bermuda that I fully utilized it's potential.


So like I said, take you time and--kids (plural) in college =$$$--means you may only have enough money left for a 30-35' boat.



PS: Those 7 years of cruising were the happiest years of my life!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Getting my teeth fixed after running it at 9kt in chop would be far too expensive... Its clearly a fair weather boat and if you got into really bad weather with a rocky lee shore, you would be in trouble.... That may appeal to many who will never be more than a few hours away from the dock but one can obviously do better for the money... but not new...

A couple of months ago, a Django 7.7 showed up here in Port Cygnet, TAsmania with a youngish French couple on board. Silly little day sailor, you might think, but they had sailed her from France via Cape Stiff and had been on their way for over 5 years.

To think that such boats can't sail off a stormy lee shore is folly... they sail damn well... far better than boats of similar size from days of yore. And this one was a twin keeler, so that she could be dried out on the beach for painting, etc, and use drying anchorages if needed.

They are not cheap, but very well designed and built (no mass product here).

We were quite impressed with the boat and with her crew. They wandered off and have likely been sequestered by Covid since we saw them.

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/revi...ws/django-7-70.

As to pounding when hard on the wind... well, our boat will pound a bit if driven hard to windward. But if we slow down and fall off to the kind of speeds and angles attainable by older designs, well, the pounding stops. Fancy that... it is the speed that causes the harsh ride, not solely the design of the hull.

Jim

[Fore and Aft]

Awesome yacht Jim, 2.99 meter beam is almost starting to reach multihull beam/length ratio. Shane Acton from Shrimpy would have thought she was a palace.
Speaking of speed Jim, I was out on a Sayer 43 (Slice of heaven) yesterday and we hit 9.8 knots with a main and genoa while doing sea trials yesterday.
Cheers

[Wotname]

What has changed - price and the type of owner!

Back in the 70s and 80s, bigger boats were proportionally more expensive compared to smaller boats than they are today.

And

The 90s GPS ushered in a new type of sailor and I speculate it is (generally speaking) one that isn't willing to put up with the hardships demanded by the limited space of a smaller boat.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

If they could sell them - small yachts - the builders would build them....

In the mid 90's I was speaking to the sales manager at Westerly Yacht construction... just before they went under for the very last time... he said that you simply could not sell a new boat 36 feet or under in the UK.... that was why they no longer built them...

There is obviously a niche market for boats like the RM....

Suitability of RMs and Ovnis for long distance cruising? I have met two RMs in Patagonia and Ovnis of assorted length are best described as common down there ... along with similar hard chine alloy yachts of the same ilk.

What killed Westerly was the Beneteai/Dufour/Jeaneau production lines churning out cheap thin skinned boats that would never meet the LloydsA1 standard that Westerly built to.. the quality became to expensive.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What killed Westerly was the Beneteai/Dufour/Jeaneau production lines churning out cheap thin skinned boats that would never meet the LloydsA1 standard that Westerly built to.. the quality became to expensive.

It's a thought, but if you'd spent time watching a westerly being built you'd see why the factory couldn't possibly make any money. While the European companies were building huge production lines and installing computer controlled cutters from cad, they were still building boats like you or I would in a shed.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Wotname

What has changed - price and the type of owner!

Back in the 70s and 80s, bigger boats were proportionally more expensive compared to smaller boats than they are today.

Also the availability of money, just look at today's interest rates, significantly lower that 70-80s, so more money paying off the principal, not interest. Savers though have been completely stuffed for several decades. So what do they do instead? yep spend it and buy a nice yacht, RV or caravan.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

While the European companies were building huge production lines

I think Bavaria claimed to have built 3000 boats one year just before the Credit Crunch.

[jpendoley]

Originally Posted by Phantom Jim

I will state, without any proof or evidence whatever, that our 1981 36 foot Pearson 365 ketch is most likely a stronger boat today than many brand new boats for sale. I also suspect she will be around long after these newer boats are landfill.

I will also state they will not have more serenity than we had either!

God love the Good Old Days!

Here’s the proof-on a Pearson 365 cruising Maine in comfort, hot showers aboard, heat and ice cubes. Easy single handing, cheap to run and easier to repair. 45 year old diesel technology pushes her along nicely. Two weeks of provisions aboard and no need to go ashore once in two weeks. Not tied to a bank loan either.
Jim in Christmas Cove