What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I thought that was what I said.. also each stage had to be inspected by a Lloyds surveyor.
They were undercut on price and speed.. and quality.

Hardly "each stage". I was told, for example, that I was lucky because it wasn't raining just after my hull was laid up, meaning the humidity was well within limits. There was no qc department whatsoever, just guys fixing whatever the customer spotted.

Watching the video of the bavaria production line compared with what used to happen in Westerly is like comparing BMW with a home-built kit car.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Oh my god
Otter, look at that boat
Its so big
She looks like one of those production boats
Who understands those production boats
They only sail her because she is like like a floating condo
I mean her stern, length and beam
It's just so big
I can't believe it's so proud
It's just out there
I mean, it's gross
Look, she's just so HUGE

*rap*
I like big boats and I can not lie
You other sailors can't deny
That when a boat sails in with an itty bitty bow
And a round thing in your face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up tough
Cuz you notice that boat is stuffed
Deep in the beam she's wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, baby I wanna get with ya
And take your picture
My yachties tried to warn me
But that stern you got
Make Me so horney
Ooh, rump of smooth hull
You say you wanna get in my slip
Well use me, use me, cuz you aint that average cruisy

I've seen them sailin
To hell with a trimin
She's Sweat, Wet, got it goin like a turbo vette

I'm tired of CF and magazines
Saying narrow sterns are the thing
Take the average sailor and ask him that
She gotta pack much in back

So Fellas (yeah) Fellas(yeah)
Has your boat got the butt (hell yeah)
Well sail it, sail it, sail it, sail it, sail that healthy butt

Baby got back

I like'em round and big
And when I'm throwin a gig
I just can't help myself
I'm actin like an animal
Now here's my scandal

I wanna get you home
And UH, double up UH UH
I aint talkin bout This Old Boat
Cuz wooden parts were made for toys
I want em real thick and juicy
So find that juicy double
SB1's in trouble
Beggin for a piece of that bubble
So I'm lookin' at sailin’ videos
Knockin those Hunters sailin like hoes
You can have them J-boats
I'll keep my boat like Flo Jo
A word to the thick soul boats
I wanna get with ya
I won't cus or hit ya
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna --
Til the break of dawn
Baby Got it sailin on
Alot of sailors won't like this song
Cuz them punks lie to hit it and quit it
But I'd rather sail and play
Cuz I'm long and I'm strong
And I'm down to get the wind on

So ladies (yeah), Ladies (yeah)
Do you wanna roll in my boat (yeah)
Then turn around
Check it out
Even Swan boys got to shout
Baby got back

Yeah baby
When it comes to boats
Cruiser Forum ain't got nothin to do with my selection
11’ beam and 5’ draft
Only if she's 22’

So your boat throws a single spreader
Playin narrow boat lists by boat writers
But they ain't got any sail power to drive the bun
My anaconda don't want none unless you've got buns hun
You can do cutters or ketches, but please don't lose that butt
Some sailors wanna play that hard role
And tell you that the stern beam and length ain't gold
So they toss it and leave it
And I pull up quick to retrieve it
So CF says you're fat
Well I ain't down with that
Cuz your volume is large and your curves are kickin
And I'm thinkin bout stickin

To the short narrow beam boats in the magazines
You be missin the cruiser thing
Give me a Hunter I can't resist her
Narrow berths and small cockpits did miss her
Some knucklehead tried to dis
Cuz his boat was on someone's list
He had game but he chose to hit 'em
And pulled up quick to get with 'em
So sailors if the butt is round
And you wanna triple X throw down
Dial 1-900-SAILBOY and kick them nasty thoughts
Baby got back
Baby got back
Big in tha middle and she got much back x4

Oh Jehovah - please don't quit your day job Oh I forgot, you don't have a day job - maybe you should get one

Lost in this conversation is that bigger boats, with their longer water line, are much more comfortable under sail whether they're loaded in gadgets or not.

[Fence Man]

I have one of the small, affordable cruisers. �� It was cheap, in great shape, and we have had a blast with it. We would really like a cat one day, and probably will make the change in the next year or two, but for now, this’ll do us just fine.

[roam]

Originally Posted by Fence Man

I have one of the small, affordable cruisers. �� It was cheap, in great shape, and we have had a blast with it. We would really like a cat one day, and probably will make the change in the next year or two, but for now, this’ll do us just fine.

Seems to sail uphill like a dream.

[Davy J]

Absolutely so far from wrong as being ridiculous.

Oh sage one............... Tell us how you know this............?

First a mold of the hull has to produced. Then most likely a mold of the deck. Then, if there are interior liners those molds must be made as well. The difference of ten feet, in cost, is probably insignificant.

Both boats will have a mast, standing rigging, running rigging, both will likely have the same electronics. GPS, depth, anemometer, both will have a head, both will have a galley with everything that goes along with that.

Please tell me why a 35' boat should cost way less than a 45' boat...........?

[jpendoley]

Sails for one-1/3 to 1/2 as much. New engine-8k vs 15 k. Canvas-Dodger, basically everything is scaled down. No bow thruster which all big boats seem to have these days.
It’s absolutely nonsense to claim there is not a big difference in price. Go price an engine for a 45 footer vs a 35 and tell me what you come up with. Same for sails, windlass, ground tackle etc. It’s probably true that the hull construction costs are not to far apart, but that’s only a fraction of the cost of new or used.
Bu FYI

[Hoodsail]

Plenty of older, relatively smaller, affordable sailboats out there, given the longevity of fiberglass & the quality of build. Many folks have circumnavigated with boats smaller than mine, so that in addition to Marion to Bermuda or Newport to Bermuda draws the line-in-the-sand length at >=35 ft to "race", led me to the mid-30 ft range. Figure if you can make it to Bermuda across the Atlantic you can make sail safely almost anywhere. Have a house so boat is a temporary home when blue-watering it..

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Awesome yacht Jim, 2.99 meter beam is almost starting to reach multihull beam/length ratio. Shane Acton from Shrimpy would have thought she was a palace.
Speaking of speed Jim, I was out on a Sayer 43 (Slice of heaven) yesterday and we hit 9.8 knots with a main and genoa while doing sea trials yesterday.
Cheers

Ah, yes, Slice of Heaven... we almost bought her! If it had not been for the saildrive, likely would have done so. Rod Crans did a nice job on her, but Gary Macaulay did a better one on Insatiable (IMHO) so it worked out well for us.

Fun boats to sail, strong and well mannered.

Hope her new owners have as much fun in Slice as we've had in our Sayer.

Jim

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Hardly "each stage". I was told, for example, that I was lucky because it wasn't raining just after my hull was laid up, meaning the humidity was well within limits. There was no qc department whatsoever, just guys fixing whatever the customer spotted.

Watching the video of the bavaria production line compared with what used to happen in Westerly is like comparing BMW with a home-built kit car.

When was this 'build' happening..
Seems the BMW went the way of the kit car.. and it'll be interesting to see how many are still going strong in 30 or 40yrs..

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

Sails for one-1/3 to 1/2 as much. New engine-8k vs 15 k. Canvas-Dodger, basically everything is scaled down. No bow thruster which all big boats seem to have these days.
It’s absolutely nonsense to claim there is not a big difference in price. Go price an engine for a 45 footer vs a 35 and tell me what you come up with. Same for sails, windlass, ground tackle etc. It’s probably true that the hull construction costs are not to far apart, but that’s only a fraction of the cost of new or used.
Bu FYI

You've mentioned pretty much every area where there's significantly more cost, and we're still talking only thousands. Pricing for sails and engines when you place an order of 100 at a time is very different indeed from one-offs, and also doesn't include the "you have a big boat so can afford to pay more for your sails" factor.

By far the bigger cost is the installation of these things. Installing a 100hp engine takes pretty much the same time as installing a 29hp one. Same with pretty much every component of a boat. Some things are even easier because there's more space to work.

I doubt there's more than $50k in cost difference between a 35 and 45 foot boat (and probably a significant part of that is in the volume of glass fibre and epoxy.

Another element to the game, though, is that it's a lot easier to upsell a higher-end customer. A buyer of a 45-footer is in the market for a generator, watermaker, downwind sails, and Uncle Tom Cobbly. You don't get those high-margin add-on sales with a low-end boat.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I thought that was what I said.. also each stage had to be inspected by a Lloyds surveyor.
They were undercut on price and speed.. and quality.

More than one thing killed Westerly...

The BenJenBavs out of Europe was on factor.

Public perception... say 'Westerly'...people heard 'Centaur'

They fell between the cracks and lived in some sort of wilderness between the AWBs out of France and the HR/Najads....

And in the end.. the strength of the english pound... in there last year they sold one boat into continental Europe...

[Phantom Jim]

Ah, the art of knowing "what is enough"!

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by boatman61

When was this 'build' happening..

I'm not sure it was bad enough to need quotation marks around it :-) The build was in 1996 (although it felt like 1975)

The craftsmen were very competent, but manufacturing things like this requires constant injection of capital and upgrading of systems. You can't keep making things by hand and then wonder why you've been overtaken by modern manufacturing methods.

They could have kept going by moving much further upmarket into custom boats, but they were never going to compete on costs with the big guys using CNC cutters.

I'm not sure that the name was associated badly with "Centaur". No-one I knew would think that -- they were associated with all sorts from the Fulmar up to the Sealord, lots of very solid and competent if unexciting mid 30-footers.

But mainly, they needed to replace their management with people willing to accept incoming investment and spending it on the ability to make money into the future.

[Davy J]

It’s absolutely nonsense to claim there is not a big difference in price.

maybe you can explain then why almost every major boat builder has stopped building boats under 35 feet.........

the real reason is that there is not enough profit to fool with the smaller boats any longer. unfortunately, the trend probably won't stop at 35 feet........

[Enfant Du Vent]

Originally Posted by Little Otter

Thanks Enfant, I live near Augusta now so I'm slowly making my way to the coast. I fully intend to convince her to go cruising on vacations when i have a suitable boat. Unfortunately I still have 20+ years before I can retire, but I reckon that just means I have more time to plan my trip

Ahoy Little Otter:
I mentioned the problem of kids-college but now you've added an expense that makes that pale by comparison: "I fully intend to convince her to go cruising of vacations."
None of the posts have so far identified how much the wife's acceptance governed the selection of boat amenities and hence size!
L'Enfant du Vent
PS: My mother bought a picture once in Nantucket that showed an old 3 masted sailing ship and an elegantly dressed lady on the dock in front of it. The caption read, "To furnish a ship requireth much trouble, but to furnish a woman the charges are double."