What makes Morris yachts so expensive?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Not sure why you think the US market is tiny. Its the single largest sailboat market in the world. There are more sailboats in the U.S. than any other country in the world...

Anyway you are now proving the point.. There is a space for hand crafted builders. Also proving the point that the European market is different than North America.

US per capita is well down the ranking list of sailboats. Europe is the worlds largest sailing boat market. The US has a lot of people so country by country comparisons are meaningless. There is a reason the worlds largest production boat builders are based in Europe. These boats are design leaders.

Yes the US market is different, it’s mainly firstly a small mobo market not a sailing one. Even so US buyers buy a lot of European designed or influenced boats.

The death of traditional builders shows the trend of modern boat buyers.

Of course there will always be a place for custom high end crafted products , well as long as we get people with high disposal incomes.

Nothing against that. Great to see niche crafts

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Morris isn't a brand because it's not well known in Europe? That's just plain wrong. If it weren't a brand, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Sure, a brand isn't built exclusively on quality. But in the case of Morris, quality is a major component of their branding.

Not even sure what your point is. Morris makes quality yachts, and quality yachts these days command a premium. I've looked at some of these boats. They're particular. They demand a premium because people are willing to pay it.

The high cost of labor doesn't directly affect the value of used boats. It affects the value of new boats, which some may use as a relative value.

There are other threads on this forum about the quality of Bavaria yachts. You may want to weigh in on some of those with your experiences, because some of them haven't had the same experience you've had.

Bavaria is a mainstream large volume production brand. Like many it builds to a price point and has to compete in a very competitive sector against several other major competitors. Like all such boats some have product issues some don’t. But across the generality , people have good experience as the demand and second value shows today, notwithstanding the few with issues no more then bmw or Mercedes drivers with issues.

Indeed Morris and many other small European custom builders make exquisite boats , largely tailored to the specific wishes of their rich discerning customer base.

But it’s clearly a niche market , I would not contend Morris is a brand , it’s a product. But whether it’s a brand is not germane anyway

I had an opportunity to pitch industrial robots into the big yacht builders in the late 80s and I was in the HR factory in 1998

Labour was clearly the biggest single cost concern. But equally market pricing was also a factor. For example HR can charge proportionally more for a 60 footer then a 40 footer so profits are much better on bigger boats.

Hence two things make Morris expensive , labour and market positioning pricing decisions.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hence two things make Morris expensive , labour and market positioning pricing decisions.

Not sure I can agree with the "market positioning" claim. A boat, at any price or class, is not a fashionable product.

Positioning of boats prices is created by the overall package of design, features, specs, quality etc. Not by inflated marketing campaigns. And again, the "brand" in this world of products is created by many years of maintaining the above elements and a proven resale value. - back to the original OP question.

If a builder want to position a boat against HR, for example, the boat should feature more or less similar features and qualities and repeat and well prove these over quite many years - which is a significant barrier for entry into this segment.

and the bottom line, as always: It is the price buyers are willing to pay for the product.

And unlike fashionable typical consumer products buyers, sailors are way more rational in purchasing decisions, weather it is a $50K or $1.5M priced old or new boat. On purpose, I'm staying away from a super custom/one-off/exotics and talking about 'standard' GRP mono boats of say, 35-55' from a mass production to small scale production builders.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Not sure I can agree with the "market positioning" claim. A boat, at any price or class, is not a fashionable product.

Positioning of boats prices is created by the overall package of design, features, specs, quality etc. Not by inflated marketing campaigns. And again, the "brand" in this world of products is created by many years of maintaining the above elements and a proven resale value. - back to the original OP question.

If a builder want to position a boat against HR, for example, the boat should feature more or less similar features and qualities and repeat and well prove these over quite many years - which is a significant barrier for entry into this segment.

and the bottom line, as always: It is the price buyers are willing to pay for the product.

And unlike fashionable typical consumer products buyers, sailors are way more rational in purchasing decisions, weather it is a $50K or $1.5M priced old or new boat. On purpose, I'm staying away from a super custom/one-off/exotics and talking about 'standard' GRP mono boats of say, 35-55' from a mass production to small scale production builders.

Watching the current crop of buyers buying from video walk arounds and paying top dollar , and listening to buyers at a boat show recently.

* boats are most certainly “ fashion items “ to a degree , I personally know one couple looking for a particular fashionable interior. The current “ fashon “ for in-mast is another as is the interest in electric winches

* boat purchasers are anything but rational buyers. A boat is not a rational purchase

Boat companies absolutely after basic build costs are covered look at price positioning points. Hull sizes command minimum market prices.

HR has taken decades to build its brand , recognisable in any port in the world , that brand awareness allows HR to charge a premium above its costs. Sunbeam on the other hand is a very niche product not well known , but it competes in the high end market alongside HR

The USP of these niche builders is usually complete customisation , something HR cannot do. These high end hand crafted yachts can be totally customised within reason,

Customisation brings premium pricing because it’s simply not available elsewhere.

Custom yachts or hand crafted handbags , its the same pricing principles

But if you look At such high end yachts , labour is a huge factor. These are typically built in high cost countries , where minimum wages, social welfare costs etc make skilled labour very very expensive. , this cost feeds directly into the selling prices

Once you’ve accounted for all input costs , any further price point increase is totally “product positioning”.

High end products have to be expensive else people won’t buy them.

Remember wealthy flaunt wealth in different ways but they flaunt it.

[DeValency]

Boat purchase, and I can testify from my own n=1 case, is not a rational decision - that's if you remove the mental health factor... (and then, add the mental stress of boat maintenance...)

However, once a sailor is in the market for a used boat, be the Morris for $350K or the Beneteau of the same LOA and year for $150K the decision process is very rational. Most buyers start from the budget they have, new or old boat (not speaking about oligarchs...). If your budget is x you're not going to spend 2-3x just because the more expensive boat has a nicer interior - (I wish, as my boat has all super high-end Burmese mahogany interior...).

Most buyers will compare boats within their budget and these will probably be around the same class: mass production or the premium semi customized HR like. There the interior design may play, but it is a marginal cost vs. the overall.

The mass producers can do a lot to attract buyers vs. the usual suspects, by better design, features etc. Many of these do not necessarily cost more to produce and deliver, but higher investment in the initial design+the large/industrialized quantities produced and purchased.

Back to the Morris example - a buyer can decide if to invest/waste the $350K on an old Morris or a new mass production boat. It is a matter of mostly personal priorities (purpose of use) and taste. Fortunately, there is enough range for everyone.

[Vasco]

Read this thread through and it seems one big factor was not mentioned.... SERVICE.

What brings this to mind was that I was in Annapolis in 1990 and a brand new Able 42 , beautiful Chuck Paine design was being hauled for some minor problem. Don't recall exactly what the problem was might have been zincs. What struck me was it seemed that half the Maine yard was down there checking it out.

Tried getting service from the major builders lately? And yes, I know that Able Marine is no longer.

[Bowdrie]

Forgive me if I digress for a bit.
As the tech of fiberglass as a medium for boat construction took hold the "schools of thought" generally settled-out in two distinct camps in the US.
There was the "East Coast" camp epitomized by outfits such as Hinckley and others who had in many cases long experience in boatbuilding in wood, and to a large extent already owned their property, and had ready access to a qualified labor pool of craftsmen who knew how to build a "Yacht".
The other school was the West Coast, particularly the Orange County area of Southern Ca.
That "school of boatbuilding" jumped-right-in to fiberglass as a means to produce boats that the "average Joe" could afford, (in contrast to the East, which was "Blueblood country").
There was a real "Glory Days" period, which only lasted for ~15 years, give-or-take a few.
At that time large sections of Orange County were still vacant land, and property was cheap, and taxes were low.
Combined with the weather it became a Mecca for boatbuilding.
Outfits like Cal, Columbia, Down East, Luhrs, Westsail, Alajuela, Mc Gregor, Yankee, Pacific Seacraft, and a dozen others I've forgotten all sprang-up in a short time frame.
Those of us who were in the middle of all this were the "In Crowd", we largely knew each other, we hung out at the same places, and depending upon the factory orders much of the work force was mobile, working for several different companies as the work demanded, (I did part-time piece work for Pacific Seacraft when the entire company consisted of 4 people).
Imagine going to the lumber yard and seeing freight cars loaded with Teak, (or you want some 50' long Spruce? no problem).
Need some custom bronze portlights or fittings, or even a bronze windlass, the Moritz Brass Foundry was just around the corner.
At that time the largest outfit casting lead keels, and sections for the "encapsulated" keels was a "shirttail" operation in a dirt lot, not that far from where Alajuela started, (also in a dirt lot,) along with Sparcraft.
Where am I going with this?
In many cases a big part of the loss of that entire "ecosystem" of boatbuilding was due to MONEY.
The HUGE influx of home building rapidly drove up the prices of real estate to the point that it became difficult to stay in business, tax increases didn't help.
Also, the increasingly onerous regulations effectively ended operations such as casting lead and bronze, and severely impacted large-scale fiberglass work without very expensive air/fume containment tech.
Of course, the increasing competition from Tiawan did not help.
All taken together it was a "Grand time", a "Happening" if you will.
For those of us who were part of it, it was some of the best times of our lives.
We were making history and didn't even know it.
And we built a lot of *$^# fine boats that people who weren't "rich" could afford.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

High end products have to be expensive else people won’t buy them.

Remember wealthy flaunt wealth in different ways but they flaunt it.

Or, maybe people who can afford quality have the option of buying it.

Products built to a price point sometimes cut corners to get to that price point.

Often, you get what you pay for. Or maybe a better way to say that is that if you don't pay for it, you usually don't get it.

On the topic of Morris, those are beautiful boats. Some of the competing production boats aren't really all that attractive. Yes, sometimes you have to pay a premium for style.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Or, maybe people who can afford quality have the option of buying it.

Products built to a price point sometimes cut corners to get to that price point.

Often, you get what you pay for. Or maybe a better way to say that is that if you don't pay for it, you usually don't get it.

On the topic of Morris, those are beautiful boats. Some of the competing production boats aren't really all that attractive. Yes, sometimes you have to pay a premium for style.

Style is very much in the eye of the beholder , so it remains to be seen

Personally , many boats well crafted are not “ stylish “ That includes Morris.

[boatman61]

Two 38ft boats here..
Only one meets my criteria for style..
The other could be any one of half a dozen marques.

[LakeSuperior]

With teak at $30 bf there is a reason why it doesn't appear much in production yachts. May not be just a consumer demand item at that price.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

With teak at $30 bf there is a reason why it doesn't appear much in production yachts. May not be just a consumer demand item at that price.

If only it was that cheap!! Teak 4/4 is currently running north of $45 bft!!!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

With teak at $30 bf there is a reason why it doesn't appear much in production yachts. May not be just a consumer demand item at that price.

The importation of Burmese’s teak being illegal in Europe anyways.

Haven’t seen interior teak in any later boats to any extent , ash, oak , done cherry , pine or maple seem common , in older mahogney and Sapele seem common.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The importation of Burmese’s teak being illegal in Europe anyways.

Haven’t seen interior teak in any later boats to any extent , ash, oak , done cherry , pine or maple seem common , in older mahogney and Sapele seem common.

Teak is still a very popular interior wood choice for new boats, at least here in North America.

[boatman61]

I believe one of the more traditional American boat builders has its own teak plantation in S America..