What you should know about brokers

[Boat_Girl]

Right? Everybody is working for themselves...and needs to be paid for what they do...brokers, doctors, lawyers, you name it. And I think that people who work on commission often work harder...for me, feeding my kid and providing shelter for her are the driving forces, so of course I work for myself! But the marine industry is very, very small...most of my listings are referrals. So it's important to always be ethical and honest.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Good to know, & REALLY appreciated. That said, anyone have a list of questions, & resources to use for vetting such a broker? It surely would help in picking one of quality.

I second the list of resources! Another question or two -

1. Does the BB also recommend specific finance brokers, banks or whatever?

2. Would a BB be up front about their familiarity with types of boats (e.g. cats), and recommend another?

3. Does a BB get involved with new boat purchases, or is there nothing to be gained on either side?

We aren't ready yet, as we're still refitting/upgrading our boat to sail this year on the Chesapeake and put it up for sale, but all this info will be valuable then; thanks!

[Mad Hatter]

Hello Future Stories,

It's funny your post came out today, I was looking at the same time for a buyers broker. I currently have a Catalina 22 on the Magothy, and am heading up to Toronto later this week to look at a few 34'-36' Canadian Sailcraft boats. I had started asking around Annapolis for recommendations on a buyers broker, but have not received any names. Can we connect?

[Larry Florida]

Originally Posted by bsurvey

I have been a marine surveyor for 35 years. I have been offered bribes 3 times from yacht brokers if I would "pass the boat" since I have too much integrity it wasn't going to happen.


I have moved on to commercial hulls, tugs and barges better to deal with professionals.


I have been in the market for a 36 to 40 ft boat and have met a lot of resistance in even showing me a boat to the point of refusal or telling me its under "contract' when it isn't.


when I pressed the broker as to why. he told me that I take too much time looking at the boat.
I have access to soldboats.com and when I show the broker the print out he ignored it and refused to submit my offer to the owner.


so much for the "yacht broker experience"

Is there no licensing board you can write to?

[tartansail]

Originally Posted by Crazy Talk

Good stuff here. How does the buyer broker fit in when boats you are interested in are a hundred miles away or more. What I see happening is a buyer decides on a couple models, none of which are local to him. So to see them will require some day trips. I can't imaging the BB traveling along.

We used the same BB to buy our last two boats. He also got the listing for the first boat he helped us with. We traveled about 200 miles to look at boats. Our broker went on the local viewings -- up to about 50 miles. He did organize the appointments for our longer road trips which was very helpful.

Another issue that the BB helped with was managing the escrow for our deposit. While most folks our not going to run off with your money, it's nice to have the money managed by someone you know.

[farmall.dude]

Hey Future Stories! Awesome Concept! I would like to jump in and take advantage of your offer before someone tells you "You Can't Do That!" I'll send you a PM... if I can figure out how to do that.

[barnakiel]

Brokers, surveyors, financing, are mostly an American fad. Elsewhere, plenty of boats change hands without such devices.

True for many small boats (less than 100k) and as the boat gets bigger, then one ore more of the above alternatives seem to enter the picture.

So my takeaway is now and then one can do without a broker.

Small boat, small visions, small headaches.

Big boat, ignorant owner, get a broker.

Cheers,
b.

[FutureStories]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Good to know, & REALLY appreciated. That said, anyone have a list of questions, & resources to use for vetting such a broker? It surely would help in picking one of quality.

Interviewing your broker:

Look for red flags! You're more trying to disqualify them than qualify them

1. Ask them about their knowledge of your particular models you're looking at. Chances are a lot of times if you have been eye balling something more unique they probably know less than you. See if they'll admit it or blow smoke up your ass. Its okay for them to not know the boat inside and out, you want them handling the negotiations, paperwork, surveying, etc...

2. Ask them for some instances of negotiations they've done. I have stories for days of negotiations I've handled. Many are non-marine related because I am new to the industry. But my $100 paintball gun -> $1000 kayak story always gets a good laugh (I was 16) My parents put me on the phone with AOL when I was 13 thats tougher than dealing with terrorists.

3. Figure out what extra they will do for you! I have offered to crew boats for the delivery when working with far away markets. Simply put because the commission is big enough I can take a few weeks off to sail. I mean thats why I got in this business, to sail more why not help people who pay me. This is a HIGHLY uncommon offer! But hey, I'd rather sail your boat across the ocean than mine

4. Test their response time! Communicate with them 3+ times before verbally asking them to represent you as a buyers broker! Try by call, text and email. Whatever your preferred method is check twice. No sense having someone represent you that you cant get in touch with.

5. Ask their plan! Many of your boats you're interested in are going to be far away. I got my plan from my friends that sell Catamarans. They solely sell catamarans around the world. So I talked to them about their strategy and fit it into my plan.

6. CALL MORE BROKERS. Even if you have a good feeling about your first choice, call more people. Its the same advice I give on boats. It helps alleviate the "what it" after the fact. I have someone call me about a specific model. I say lets go see it. I have these boats similarly styled near the one you're interested in. Lets affirm the reasons you picked the boat (for new buyers, old salts know what they want, I let them steer the ship!)

7. Ask for references! I have a handful of people that I've worked with. Some we never even did a deal. But I treated them right, they agreed to give me a referral for my time spent helping them.

8. Pray. There are a lot of bad brokers out there. There are a lot of good ones. If you're not comfortable vetting people. Ask your shrewd friend to do it for you. My friends have had me negotiate their phone bills and cable companies for beer. I get a kick out of arguing with comcast and verizon, especially with a healthy buzz. Call that friend! Have them interview your brokers.


Hope this helps!

[kapnkarl]

I wish the OP (Future Stories) all the best in his endeavors. It's a small market and a tough one at times. I strongly suggest being up-front and above all honest to be considered a professional. Don't put the sale above all else.

I've had experiences with 6 or 7 brokers on both the buying and selling side and i hate to say it, but to this day I only consider 1 of them a truthful businessman. The rest would have sold me, or helped sell me their grandmother if she lived in the area.

Numerous times I've heard how bristol and turn-key a boat is, only to find soft, rotted deck core or fried generators, etc. Not a good feeling when you walk up to a boat that you've traveled hours to see.

On one occasion I scheduled a last minute plane trip of about 1200 miles to look at a very strong contender that had recently come up for sale. My buyer's broker couldn't break away on such short notice and neither could the seller's broker. When I got to the boat I let the selling broker's rep know that I had a buyer's broker and was going to give the boat a thorough look-see. The rep admitted he wasn't familiar with the boat or its systems but told me to go ahead.
After going over the boat above & below decks for about 2 hours (after all, I did fly 1200 miles to see it), I concluded that it was fairly solid and told the rep I was interested and wanted to discuss things further. He recommended I contact the broker directly. When I did call, this very well known broker went off on me saying that if I wanted a buyer's broker involved, I'd have to pay him out of my own pocket! He told me he had to pay his rep for the 2 hrs he watched me plus his travel time and there was no way he was going to share the commission. The boat was listed at just under 200k so we're talking about a commission of almost $20k. When I told him he was being unreasonable, he told me the boat was under contract and hung up.

Bottom line... be fair, up-front, honest and human. Yes, it can be a tough business but don't let greed rule you. Just sayin.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I second the list of resources! Another question or two -

1. Does the BB also recommend specific finance brokers, banks or whatever?

Sure. A good BB will be familiar with lenders and insurance brokers, and probably have relationships with a few. That said, they're not going to do more than give you some names and numbers.

Originally Posted by LeeV

2. Would a BB be up front about their familiarity with types of boats (e.g. cats), and recommend another?

A good BB will listen to your requirements, ask a lot of questions, and then recommend a short list of boats that they believe will meet your needs. Are they going to be honest about what they can do well and what they can't? That depends on the individual. If you're set on a type of boat that they just don't have a lot of experience with, I would hope that they'd be forthcoming about that and in a position to recommend someone else.

Originally Posted by LeeV

3. Does a BB get involved with new boat purchases, or is there nothing to be gained on either side?

Generally not unless you hire them on a fee for service basis, since there is no commission. A good number of very experienced brokers will serve as consultants during the build/fitout process but that's really only of value at the higher end f the scale. That said, many brokers work at dealerships and every dealership has a brokerage arm. If you buy a new boat from them they obviously get a sales commission.

[buzzstar]

John- I am no where nearby where you are, but I learned or confirmed several things. I even put you name in my book in case I am asked about brokers or listed boats by a pal on the eastern part of the US.Thank you!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by bsurvey

I have been a marine surveyor for 35 years. I have been offered bribes 3 times from yacht brokers if I would "pass the boat" since I have too much integrity it wasn't going to happen.


I have moved on to commercial hulls, tugs and barges better to deal with professionals.


I have been in the market for a 36 to 40 ft boat and have met a lot of resistance in even showing me a boat to the point of refusal or telling me its under "contract' when it isn't.


when I pressed the broker as to why. he told me that I take too much time looking at the boat.
I have access to soldboats.com and when I show the broker the print out he ignored it and refused to submit my offer to the owner.


so much for the "yacht broker experience"

Although I have experienced mostly good brokers, I have run into two that would not answer questions or deal with me. I simply went onto the USCG site and inserted the boat name. Knowing the make of the boat, I was able to contact the owner directly. Both times they didn't know their broker was doing with and one dealt with me directly.

[CarlF]

The problem is that all brokers (both buyers and sellers brokers) have a conflict of interest. It's a business where you only get paid for your time when a sale closes. The fastest sale is the most profitable. They don't get a bigger commission from a happy customer, or a great boat, or a better job negotiating. Think about it.

So do this. Hire a buyers broker because he's free (the seller pays for him) but also hire an expert who doesn't have a conflict of interest. Someone who gets paid whether you buy a boat or not. Someone who also know all of the "tricks" of the boat buying game but isn't getting a cut.

There aren't many of these. One of the best is Bob Perry. And he only charges $500. I used him years ago and was very happy.

Robert H. Perry Yacht Designers, Inc. Consultation Service

[FutureStories]

Originally Posted by CarlF

The problem is that all brokers (both buyers and sellers brokers) have a conflict of interest. It's a business where you only get paid for your time when a sale closes. The fastest sale is the most profitable. They don't get a bigger commission from a happy customer, or a great boat, or a better job negotiating. Think about it.

So do this. Hire a buyers broker because he's free (the seller pays for him) but also hire an expert who doesn't have a conflict of interest. Someone who gets paid whether you buy a boat or not. Someone who also know all of the "tricks" of the boat buying game but isn't getting a cut.

There aren't many of these. One of the best is Bob Perry. And he only charges $500. I used him years ago and was very happy.

Robert H. Perry Yacht Designers, Inc. Consultation Service

The counter agreement to that is that referrals are the most lucrative part of being a broker. While you could "negotiate less" 1000 only equals $100. When a referral is worth 25x that off our minimum commission boats. And 10,000 only = $1000 and boaters with 10,000 wiggle room in negotiations typically have other friends with expensive boats. So why blow future deals over a little bit of money. (My logic, sound logic, but I understand people are stupid and the Lil green monster comes out frequently)

However to your point. I advise people to have as many experts look over a boat as possible. Full transparency is essential. Any broker who tries to bribe a surveyor is an idiot and should be outed.

[AussieWayne]

Hey FutureStories, love your refreshing attitude and hopefully it will help you to build an enviable reputation. After all it is that reputation on which you will ultimately stand or fall. Good luck I feel that you will make good.
And yes I would love to take you up on your very kind offer so have sent you a PM.
Happy selling and happy sailing.
AussieWayne