Wheels. Why so large? Why two?

[Danm1]

On wider sterns the dual wheels are simply practical for visibility. I have a fairly large single wheel and can steer from the side with one hand while I watch the sails.
With a smaller wheel, I couldn't. The trade off is cockpit space at anchor, vs. a cockpit sweeping tiller. Everything is a compromise.
One point I haven't seen made on tiller vs. wheel is that as I get older (who am I kidding, I am old) I can't comfortably sit sideways turned to the front as required with a tiller in most boats. The wheel gives me hours more comfort.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Actually, one of the main reasons for a large wheel is to increase the "feel" of the helm. Steering a 40+ ft boat with a 30" wheel would be similar to steering with a 30" tiller unless gearing or other means of reduction are used to reduce the load. Once you gear down a smallish wheel then you have lost much of the feel and you also may have to do several turns on that wheel to turn the boat.

For the same gain you'll have the same feel or feedback. Let's say you have a 5:1 gain so 20 lbs of force on the wheel provides 100 lbs of force at the rudder. Or 100 lbs of weather helm causes you to apply 20 lbs of force on the wheel to go straight.
Whether you have a 1' radius or 5' radius wheel, geared appropriately for both to have 5:1, to move the rudder 10" you have to move the wheel 50" of distance at the rim of the wheel. In terms of wheel revolutions, that's 2/3rds of a revolution on the small wheel, and a little over 1/10 of a revolution on the big wheel.
So same feedback, same rim distance, but more revolutions on the small wheel.
If you think of steering in terms of wheel rotations, it is easier to oversteer with the big wheel, and harder to make a big turn with the small wheel. Making a one spoke adjustment means very different results, but if feedback is measured by how hard (how many lbs of force) you have to hang on, it will be the same in both cases.

[Jammer]

Thank you all for the insights.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by wingssail

That's a pretty arrogant comment and it explains why you apparently never steer.

LOL, nothing like the wrath of someone who feels their boat has been insulted!

As somebody who sailed 12,000 miles last year and motored 200 hours (do the math)... I think I can be a little bit arrogant in my opinions about cruising sailboats. If you are cruising, by which I mean actually GOING somewhere for more than a weekend, you are not spending your time tied to the wheel. It gets pretty old for me after about 4 hours... and by the 5th day offshore you just might sell your soul for a working autopilot and the chance to sit aside and enjoy the sail--in a different way than you are used to.

Of course, having a wheel on each side CAN make docking marginally easier. For those of us who rarely stay at the dock, that's not much use, and we still SOMEHOW manage to get in and out of docks without a second wheel. The extra cockpit real estate wasted on the second wheel and helm station has way better uses. Of course, on a boat designed for safe offshore passages in all weather, a cockpit should not have room for more than one wheel.

If you are daysailing, or club racing, sure! Handsteer every hour of every mile, and enjoy it! I certainly do--for a trip of a few hours. But I stand by my comment that twin wheels on passage making boats are an affectation based on racing boat style. If it makes you happy, sure, go with it. Kind of like spoilers on street cars. Looks cool--if you are into that kind of hot rod esthetic. Functional? Not so much.

Of course if you really want to steer my boat for my next 1000 mile passage, I am sure I would enjoy watching that more than I enjoy watching the autopilot...

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by James S

When we did or refit/reconfiguration we built a canting helm.. mostly to allow easier access around our narrow cockpit... but its also proved a pretty comfy steering set up when heeled...

Nice.

We remove our wheel when not under way and store it by the mizzen or on the EDSON pin at the rail.

[Nikki S]

Originally Posted by billknny

I took the key off the shaft on "her" wheel...

I'd have you walk the plank, if I was "her"

Or was it her who asked you to because she is a good skipper who knows how to put the weakest, scared person on the helm.

[FabioC]

Mmmmm... that cruisers spend 99.9% of the time on autopilot, as it has been suggested, I do not think it is true. Maybe long distance cruisers when on a long passage, but not even sure about that...

For us, we do have an autopilot, but the only time we use it is when hoisting or taking down the spinnaker short handed, since the halyard and the tack line cannot be reached from the wheel... 99.9% of the time we are manually steering, and having twin, large wheels has many advantages, as others have pointed out.

As for the fact that when on autopilot, two wheels are of no use... well, that is certainly a fact... However, come to think of it, when on autopilot, even one wheel is not strictly needed... the rare times we are on autopilot for an extended period of time, we steer from the iPad!

[Nicholson58]

Once the hook is up and we are clear, Simrad the Sailor takes over. Third member of the crew. Drinks no beer, eats no food. Works for no pay. Never gives me lip.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by FabioC

Mmmmm... that cruisers spend 99.9% of the time on autopilot, as it has been suggested, I do not think it is true. Maybe long distance cruisers when on a long passage, but not even sure about that...

Me thinks you have never been on a long passage.

Out last "long" passage was from Eleuthera to Norfolk. 4.5 days.

Just imagine for the moment... two people on board... 96hours... you have to cook, navigate, maintain the boat, trim sails... etc, etc.

How many hours do you think you'll ACTUALLY be sitting at the helm steering the boat?

Now remember... the helmsman is NOT legal considered a lookout... so NOW what?

[Tillsbury]

Helmsman not a lookout? What are you thinking?

I like to helm a lot of the time. Sure, I flick it to auto every now and then to have a coffee, muck with sails, that kind of thing. I'd say on any passage of more than 24 hours I'd be actually helming for at least half of the time I'm on watch. Enjoying the sailing, feeling the wind and picking the best angle, or making life more comfortable for everyone else when running with a rolly sea.

And I'm certainly a better lookout when I'm helming than any other time. It's when you're really concentrating on things outside the boat rather than within.

[sec906]

Originally Posted by daletournier

When docking a beamy boat its nice to be on which ever side you choose.

Agreed. Except I've never seen the engine controls on both sides.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by billknny

LOL, nothing like the wrath of someone who feels their boat has been insulted!

As somebody who sailed 12,000 miles last year and motored 200 hours (do the math)... I think I can be a little bit arrogant in my opinions about cruising sailboats. If you are cruising, by which I mean actually GOING somewhere for more than a weekend, you are not spending your time tied to the wheel. It gets pretty old for me after about 4 hours... and by the 5th day offshore you just might sell your soul for a working autopilot and the chance to sit aside and enjoy the sail--in a different way than you are used to.

Of course, having a wheel on each side CAN make docking marginally easier. For those of us who rarely stay at the dock, that's not much use, and we still SOMEHOW manage to get in and out of docks without a second wheel. The extra cockpit real estate wasted on the second wheel and helm station has way better uses. Of course, on a boat designed for safe offshore passages in all weather, a cockpit should not have room for more than one wheel.

If you are daysailing, or club racing, sure! Handsteer every hour of every mile, and enjoy it! I certainly do--for a trip of a few hours. But I stand by my comment that twin wheels on passage making boats are an affectation based on racing boat style. If it makes you happy, sure, go with it. Kind of like spoilers on street cars. Looks cool--if you are into that kind of hot rod esthetic. Functional? Not so much.

Of course if you really want to steer my boat for my next 1000 mile passage, I am sure I would enjoy watching that more than I enjoy watching the autopilot...

Of course people on passages rarely like to put in long hours on the helm. We don't either. Sorry if I presumed from your 99.9% on the auto pilot comment that you were rarely actually sailing. We don't use the autopilot because we are mostly on the wind vane. If I steer its for the fun of it. It works for us.

But it is nice to know that you can sail the boat and have an enjoyable experience steering when you want to. Large wheels or two wheels, or a tiller with an extension, on a well designed boat with the right sails, is a joy. The two wheels, as several others have mentioned, have real value for visibility and control. I think if you believe that it just a gimmick to look cool you might be surprised if you sailed some of those boats for a while and the convenience of easy access to the stern (between the wheels) is a definite additional benefit.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by sec906

Agreed. Except I've never seen the engine controls on both sides.

It can be done, certainly. My morse control got rusted out (for some reason one side of it is made of mild steel -- duh!). I replaced it with an identical one that was sitting in a warehouse as obsolete stock. The new one is lovely and smooth. However, it comes with instructions on how to fix up dual controls -- I would need additional cables and some slightly complicated gubbins in between. But it would give control from both sides of the boat which would be nice. And, of course, it gives duplication in case of failure. It's on the distant to-do list...

[cyan]

Originally Posted by MJH

All boats are a compromise and I think twin steering wheels are more marketing than anything else...some think it just looks cool. With twice the expense and mechanical hardware that will need maintenance and eventual replacement, I think it is a bad tradeoff. Who will buy these boats when replacement is warranted...it is built-in obsolescence. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) rules in my world. A previous writer mentioned that the use of an autopilot negates the need for the twins, I agree. On my recent roundtrip to Hawaii operating under a Monitor windvane and huddled under the dodger, having twins would have been of no value. It all seems like so much ridiculous overkill to me, I only see some value for the ardent racer of which there are few of us sailing.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Ah, but you, sir, have a skinny stern.
If you had a big wide stern, you might feel differently.

[waterman46]

[QUOTE=Tillsbury;2697239
Twin wheels were one of the few must-haves on our current boat.[/QUOTE]

If someone was to give me a boat with two wheels, I would immediately remove one pedestal and install a big cockpit table or instrument panel in its place. The reason for two wheels is to give a racing helmsman a view from the lee side, underneath a decksweeping genoa jib. Cruisers have high clewed genoas for roller furling so there is no need to steer from the lee side - center position is just fine. And if we want to race, we usually just crew on someone else's boat who can afford all the go-fast rigging, gear and breakage that racing entails.