Wheels. Why so large? Why two?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

please read more well documented instances of injuries related to those conditions, where many have suffered, from being tossed across very beamy boats. Very simple, the further one is tossed, the more damage is caused by the sudden stop.

Please provide a link or two.

[LEOCAT66]

Simply the law of Physics. The further one is thrown, the greater the probability of injury. There was a recent thread, right here on this forum, about a recent such occurrence involving a world cruiser on the Pacific Coast, Both occupants, one above and one below deck were tossed into things and injured, when struck by what was believed to be a rogue wave. The boat was abandoned and later recovered. Read more and you will discover many such occurrences. These events are not related to any particular type of boat, but older, narrower, more sea kindly designs, seem to have the advantage in this area, as they limit the distance one might be thrown.


The current designs are merely marketing to the demands of those who demand more and more comforts and room. More and more beam dictated more wheels as the single wheels became too large. It is really all about below deck issues and room. Learned long ago that "If Mamma Isn't Happy, No One Is Happy".

[Tillsbury]

It was a darned sight further across the aft cabin of my old centre cockpit boat (similar to the one you’re referring to) than across either of the two aft cabins in my wider boat. A lot more padding and handholds too, and more secure storage for everything to be in.

[Leo Ticheli]

Originally Posted by sec906

Agreed. Except I've never seen the engine controls on both sides.

I am very fond of twin wheels for all the reasons others have mentioned, and especially since twin helms makes the cockpit seem much more spacious and eases moving to the sugar scoop swim platform. We spend a lot of time getting into and out of the water.

I do consider the lack of dual engine controls a stupid oversight, probably a cost-saving side effect; I have to dock at the starboard helm, even when I could see better from port, because the lever is starboard only.

I wonder if anyone has added engine controls to the other side?

Fair winds,

Leo

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Simply the law of Physics. The further one is thrown, the greater the probability of injury. There was a recent thread, right here on this forum, about a recent such occurrence involving a world cruiser on the Pacific Coast, Both occupants, one above and one below deck were tossed into things and injured, when struck by what was believed to be a rogue wave. The boat was abandoned and later recovered. Read more and you will discover many such occurrences. These events are not related to any particular type of boat, but older, narrower, more sea kindly designs, seem to have the advantage in this area, as they limit the distance one might be thrown.


The current designs are merely marketing to the demands of those who demand more and more comforts and room. More and more beam dictated more wheels as the single wheels became too large. It is really all about below deck issues and room. Learned long ago that "If Mamma Isn't Happy, No One Is Happy".

Physics are always in control, but your example of injuries to sailors in a knockdown is bogus. The vessel in consideration was not the dread pizza slice modern boat, but a derivative of the Peterson 44 which is a boat of rather old fashioned dimensions.

If you are going to use straw man arguments, try to find appropriate straw men to knock down.

And I add my voice to the request for citations of the "many such occurrences". I'm pretty involved in the ocean sailing community around here and know of no such proliferation of injuries.

Jim

[cyan]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Read more and you will discover many such occurrences.

You cited one (bad) example of a 45 foot boat that has a beam of 12 feet, where the sleeping crew member below was NOT injured after being tossed to the ceiling in the aft cabin, and the skipper was hit on the head.

Would a nice skinny 10 foot beam have prevented the skipper from getting hit in the head by a piece of teak coaming that was ripped off the cabin top by the wave?

I don't see your point yet.
Where, exactly, can I "read more"?

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Do you ever question what you think you know?

This was in reply to a thoughtful comment in which the author (not me) qualified all his statements with "to me", "I think" or "seems" and his post addressed the actual topic. . . .

Back to that topic, many have mentioned that the wide beam on some modern boats that are used for cruising, makes having twin wheels a big advantage. I can see that. Now I got to thinking, well, catamarans have extreme beam and they get along just fine with a single wheel FAIK. Jim made a good point, that is for visibility of traffic off the lee bow, when our monohulls are heeled. But can the helmsman in a typical cat get a good view to leeward just because he's not heeling?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by waterman46

This was in reply to a thoughtful comment in which the author (not me) qualified all his statements with "to me", "I think" or "seems" and his post addressed the actual topic. . . .

Back to that topic, many have mentioned that the wide beam on some modern boats that are used for cruising, makes having twin wheels a big advantage. I can see that. Now I got to thinking, well, catamarans have extreme beam and they get along just fine with a single wheel FAIK. Jim made a good point, that is for visibility of traffic off the lee bow, when our monohulls are heeled. But can the helmsman in a typical cat get a good view to leeward just because he's not heeling?

Hmmmm, you read a thoughtful reply. I read someone suggesting modern yacht design to be unseaworthy without substantiating his opinion. He then later uses a stretched KP44 as an eg of this unseaworthiness !

My reply may of been a tad to aggressive, a little to quick to vent my frustration BUT propelling myths intentially or unintentionally isnt conducive to a forum that some use for educational purposes.

If i was to say skinny ultimate stability full keel older boats roll gunnel to gunnel to the point they throw people into the water IMO ,Id hope you or someone else would challenge me and point out that this is nonsense.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli

I am very fond of twin wheels ….

I do consider the lack of dual engine controls a stupid oversight, ….

I wonder if anyone has added engine controls to the other side?

Fair winds,

Leo

If you have an electronic control ('fly by wire'), then it should be reasonably easy. After all, this is the system that modern flybridge cruisers use with helming stations below and up on the bridge deck. Our boat has a manual bilge pump over on the port side where the engine control would normally be, so I would either have to move the existing control, or move the bilge pump to have the two helming stations symmetrical (the way I like things). It is at the back of my mind, but that's for another year when the more pressing additions and improvements are done.

If you have Morse control, then I understand you can get a 'repeater' unit that basically acts as a junction between the two controls. My thought would be the increased friction for either control, when you are effectively dragging the passive control around each time you use the active control.

For the potential for failure of the electronic style controls, they do have a lot of advantages.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

older, narrower, more sea kindly designs, seem to have the advantage in this area, as they limit the distance one might be thrown...

The current designs are merely marketing to the demands of those who demand more and more comforts and room. More and more beam dictated more wheels as the single wheels became too large. It is really all about below deck issues and room...

This is an incorrect statement. Race boats have gotten wider in the stern for performance reasons. Cruising boat buyers often recognize that and choose wider, modern, boats for that reason too, as well as, yes, more room in the aft cabins. Two wheels are definitely helpful on a wider boat.

We ourselves have a wide boat (midships=13ft, not in the stern) and one time Judy, while putting on her foulies, was thrown about 8 ft. across the cabin, and got a serious black eye. It could have been worse. We know to be very careful about this kind of fall and it hadn't happened before or since, still, it was scary.

So that is a danger, actually on any boat. I think boats with wide sterns don't generally have full width cabins back there but falling across a narrow boat with an 8 ft. wide main cabin can still cause serious injury.

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Learned long ago that "If Mamma Isn't Happy, No One Is Happy".

On our boat, Mama is just as likely to be on deck and steering as I am, and to make her happy we need to have good visibility from the helm as well as a safe, fast, boat that also has plenty of room down below.

[Cheechako]

I'd rather pay for extra autopilot than an extra wheel setup.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This is an incorrect statement. Race boats have gotten wider in the stern for performance reasons. Cruising boat buyers often recognize that and choose wider, modern, boats for that reason too, as well as, yes, more room in the aft cabins. Two wheels are definitely helpful on a wider boat.

We ourselves have a wide boat (midships=13ft, not in the stern) and one time Judy, while putting on her foulies, was thrown about 8 ft. across the cabin, and got a serious black eye. It could have been worse. We know to be very careful about this kind of fall and it hadn't happened before or since, still, it was scary.

So that is a danger, actually on any boat. I think boats with wide sterns don't generally have full width cabins back there but falling across a narrow boat with an 8 ft. wide main cabin can still cause serious injury.




On our boat, Mama is just as likely to be on deck and steering as I am, and to make her happy we need to have good visibility from the helm as well as a safe, fast, boat that also has plenty of room down below.

But wait, I thought cruisers never hand steer?[emoji3]

[Cheechako]

One problem I have with dual wheels is they are often way at the back of the boat. No one I know cruising wants to be back there.

[mcerdos]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I rather like tiller steering. On sailboats, I've used nothing else.


As we contemplate switching to a considerably larger boat, I'm trying to figure out what's up with wheels. So many of them just seem huge. Take up all kinds of space in the cockpit. Hard to move around. And for what purpose? The whole idea of a wheel is that there are gears or sprockets or pulleys or whatever and the whole affair can be set to any desired gear ratio, so that a boat can be controlled with modest effort without the wheel having to be seven feet across.


So, what's up with these huge wheels?


Does it make sense to retrofit a more sensible wheel on boats so equipped?


And two helm stations? I don't get it. Help me out here.

So I have asked myself this question quite a few times and have never seen an answer that makes real sense (including those posted here). I believe there are more downsides to the two helm wheel set up than positives.

We own an Amel 53. The helm is bulkhead mounted in the front of the center cockpit. We have cruised for 5 years and when sailing offshore use the auto pilot 100% of the time. We have sailed in all type of conditions and because of the location of our helm station and hard dodger, we have never needed to put on weather gear">foul weather gear. I'm not sure I even know where foul weather gear is stowed anymore. Our steering station is dry and safe. We can control all the sails from the helm and during passages we need not leave the safety of the center cockpit.

Real estate is a commodity on a sailboat. So why use up space in the cockpit for a second steering station that might be a benefit on a very few occasions? Use the space for something else such as lift-raft stowage, dinghy stowage or even a bigger BBQ.

Most cruisers we see with two helm stations at the stern arrive wet and tired into port. I can understand the appeal of two stations for a racing boat but for a cruising boat it is just plain stupidity. What on earth possessed the manufactures of these boats to put a steering station in the wettest part of the boat?

The mere fact you are questioning boats with this set up tells me you are smarter than the average person shopping boats at the shows. You would do well to look at serious blue water cruising boats (such as Amel) and you will find boats built for livability and safety. Not looks or racing.

If you want to see our set up, you can view it here.

Good luck with your hunt and I hope you find a great boat.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Now I got to thinking, well, catamarans have extreme beam and they get along just fine with a single wheel FAIK. Jim made a good point, that is for visibility of traffic off the lee bow, when our monohulls are heeled. But can the helmsman in a typical cat get a good view to leeward just because he's not heeling?

All of the Seawind cats have dual helm. So Seawind seems to think the design is better with them. I agree, and am about to take delivery of my second Seawind cat. And we've raced our cat and cruised it, and have sailed her from both wheels with great visibility of sail trim, traffic, etc. And it's nice to be able to reach the winches and the wheel at the same time. And none of the Seawind cats have those elevated steering stations that force the boom higher. Neither does Gunboat, or Outremer, as I recall. These cats are designed to be sailed first, and accommodations secondary. IMO