Wheels. Why so large? Why two?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by mcerdos

We own an Amel 53. The helm is bulkhead mounted in the front of the center cockpit. We have cruised for 5 years and when sailing offshore use the auto pilot 100% of the time. [....]

If you want to see our set up, you can view it here.

Thanks, Mark. The Super Maramu breaks with many traditions, and I agree that the cockpit design is unusually amenable to cruising. Not the right boat for me -- for one thing, I've got to be able to clear bridges on the upper Mississippi which limits my air draft to an absolute maximum of 58'.

[Davie J.]

If you are ever going to single hand the boat, a wheel is an impediment. A tiller can be controlled between your lelgs while you are handling lines. And, you don't have a wheel to clamber around. Wheels are just in the way. I'm changing the wheel on my 40 foot boat to a tiller for these reasons and because my wind vane operates so much more efficiently with a tiller.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

If you are ever going to single hand the boat, a wheel is an impediment. A tiller can be controlled between your lelgs while you are handling lines. And, you don't have a wheel to clamber around. Wheels are just in the way. I'm changing the wheel on my 40 foot boat to a tiller for these reasons and because my wind vane operates so much more efficiently with a tiller.

Is there a reasonable limit to the size of a boat with a tiller? To get the appropriate leverage on a larger boat, it seems like you end up sweeping a longer tiller across the cockpit. ("pardon me, ma'am, not trying to be fresh, but we're tacking here")
As a sailor who first learned on a wind surfer, I have often dreamed of a mast that could pivot forward to balance the main. Alas, some things just don't scale up well.
To each his own...

[Windsurfer]

+1. I love that when I dock stern to and drop the swim platform., my guests can just walk right on, easy-peasy.

[skenn_ie]

If you are sailing close-hauled,it is useful to be able to see the whole of your mainsail, and more of your foresail. Having a windward wheel makes that easier, and in heavier weather, drier too.
A well built wheel system still allows you to feel the boat nearly as well as with a tiller. Some aren't well built and feel dead.

[Davie J.]

When single handing, even a longer tiller is not a problem because you are in front of it. With a wheel, you are behind it and handling the lines when tacking is a problem: You will run out of hands controlling the wheel and handling the sheets at the same time. With a tiller, you can hold it with your legs and won't have to reach around the wheel for the lines. Frankly, no matter what is said about two wheels, if you are not racing with a full crew, two wheels are just additional crap taking up valuable space.

[14murs14]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Are you suggesting that you dispute those long standing facts? If so please read more well documented instances of injuries related to those conditions, where many have suffered, from being tossed across very beamy boats. Very simple, the further one is tossed, the more damage is caused by the sudden stop.

Crazy me and 250 of my closest friends all sailed on the CG Barque Eagle back in the 90's, and the 80's, all the way back to 1936 and as far forward as today, with a full 39 feet! of beam. Can you believe it? Never heard of anyone getting pitched across that beam, despite a bunch of full width compartments and the fact that the boat's circumvented several times, plus the fact that we were all a bunch of idiot cadets at the time who knew little to nothing about boats and seamanship.

We all get that you walked 20 miles to school in the snow...uphill both ways. If you like the minimalist historic thing then more power to you. Just cut the judgmental stuff out, it only makes you sound like a grumpy old man.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

When single handing, even a longer tiller is not a problem because you are in front of it. With a wheel, you are behind it and handling the lines when tacking is a problem: You will run out of hands controlling the wheel and handling the sheets at the same time. With a tiller, you can hold it with your legs and won't have to reach around the wheel for the lines. Frankly, no matter what is said about two wheels, if you are not racing with a full crew, two wheels are just additional crap taking up valuable space.

I have no thoughts either way about dual wheels. I have only one wheel on "my last boat" and my two earlier boats have tillers. I have found ZERO difference in helm sensitivity.


I do, however, disagree, Davie, with: With a wheel, you are behind it and handling the lines when tacking is a problem...


I have a dinky little ST3000 autopilot which never was too good at the automatic tacking function. But I still run my boat from forward of the wheel. The only times I'm behind the wheel, working it, is coming and going from slips or docks, or when I choose to sit there or on my single stern perch seat.


I tack from in front of the wheel: turn wheel, boat turns, do jib sheets, readjust wheel. I only have two hands, they're enough.


The "slave behind the wheel" concept intrigues me. Don't know why anybody does that.

[AEM]

I have the "whipstaf" (kolder stok) - 2 vertical tillers, instead of wheels. It works fine on my 35ft fast cruiser, direct drive to rudder arms, very simple and reliable. Many years ago the Etap-32 had the similar system, but single.
Very quick reaction to any course/wind changes, no need 1-2 turns of wheel, just tilt on some degr.

[PHRF57]

Having raced boats of all kinds for many years, I too prefer a tiller. But the fact remains that on offshore monohulls, driving downwind can be a serious challenge in a following sea, and wheel steering is extremely helpful in those conditions. And yes, as the IOR rule increasingly favored boats that carried their beams further aft, a design trend occurred in which B max went all the way to the transom. So it should come as no surprise that double wheels have come into fashion! And when you're driving upwind, it's great to have the telltales in sight, and a leeward wheel comes in extra handy when trying to see the headsail luff. So...I love double wheels, and I think you'll find they're a great help!

[sailingharry]

As I read through this, I see two things.

First, the OP has the answer -- big wheels and double wheels are both answers to the widening sterns of boats. In my search for a new boat, an early test (and non-negotiable) is sitting at the leward coaming and holding the wheel. If I can't reach it (and if the coaming isn't comfortable), the boat is out.

But as I read all the replies, I realize it isn't a choice. You choose other features, and they lead to a wheel arrangement. Skinny boats, like my Sabre 34 or the Saga 43 I am looking at, have one wheel. Somewhat wider boats, like the Dehler 42DS I looked at, have an oversized wheel that isn't big enough -- FAIL. And the next step up is two wheels. You can't choose -- there are no boats out there with 12+ foot wide transoms and single wheels. None. Very few single wheels at 10 feet wide. And there are no boats out there with 6 foot wide transoms and double wheels. The only exception is center cockpit, which is a whole different set of compromises -- but wheel size is generally not an issue (although a quick google shows the Oyster 65 has dual wheels). If you drive the boat decision by stability, speed, accommodation size, etc -- the wheel is chosen. I guess you could start out choosing a wheel count/size, and seeing what boats fit that. But you don't choose a design "style" and then go look for a single wheel -- it's already decided at that point.

As far as "performance" and "feel" -- to each his own. But the top sailors in the sport gave up on that argument decades ago. Not many high performance race boats over 35 feet use tillers any more.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

But the top sailors in the sport gave up on that argument decades ago. Not many high performance race boats over 35 feet use tillers any more.

TP52?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wingssail

TP52?

Nice boat. Looks like about 25% use wheels, but most use tillers. That's a beast of a boat to tiller steer!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by PHRF57

as the IOR rule increasingly favored boats that carried their beams further aft, a design trend occurred in which B max went all the way to the transom.

No boats have been designed to the IOR rule since early 90's, and BTW IOR never favored boats with wide beams further aft. All IOR designs had max beam roughly mid-ships, which led to the unfortunate moniker, "pinched ends".

Nor did IMS favor wide sterns. That trend came up with more recent rules, such as IRC and various "box" rules, or "no rule" boats just meant to go fast.

Originally Posted by mcerdos

...for a cruising boat it is just plain stupidity. What on earth possessed the manufactures of these boats to put a steering station in the wettest part of the boat?

So, if it is dryness you are looking for, why not put the helm below decks? Or for that matter, fly to your destination; 747's are known to be very dry.

The point for sailors is, if you like to sail and steer for fun occasionally instead of being a passenger on a boat 100% on autopilot, then wheels (or tillers) at the aft of the boat afford better visibility and feel of sailing and have other advantages mentioned numerous times in this thread. And they are not, in my experience, particularly wet for the helmsperson. (I stopped wearing sailing boots when I became helmsperson because I didn't need them to keep my feet dry and warm, there was little spray back there and no waves.)

Anyhow, sailingharry made the best point. You select a boat based on what drives your decision and take what steering configuration comes with it.

Originally Posted by sailingharry

If you drive the boat decision by stability, speed, accommodation size, etc -- the wheel is chosen.

In my view, those people who have no use for big wheels, two wheels, or tillers, and who are perfectly happy with a wheel which goes 5 turns lock to lock or with hydraulic steering, don't really like sailing all that much. They are choosing boats for other reasons than sailing ability.

That's fine, but lay off the comments about stupidity of sailors or designers who prefer to sail.

[leftbrainstuff]

The large wheels make no sense other than trying to emulate a racer look.

For a cruising sailboat large wheels are nothing but a total PITA . They magnify freeplay, they hinder visibility and they force the operator to adopt odd steering postures.

On our Liberty 458 we have a small but cosy and safe cockpit that is fully enclosed. The standard wheel is 3 feet in diameter. It's too wide to safely get around in the cockpit in any form of sea state. Were going to downsize and possibly go to a folding wheel.

These days you don't need a large diameter wheel for leverage. We have hydraulic steering which is also adjustable for force multiplication. It's actually much easier to manual steer (less tangential movement) with a small wheel if we lose both autopilots.

As for twin wheels we are a center cockpit so it isn't even practical. If you want a fully enclosed cockpit (number one priority for us and many cruisers) then you end up with a massive marquee on the back of the boat with a twin steer aft cockpit.

Twin wheels also double instrumentation costs. We have a custom helm. Everything you need to control is on one helm greatly simplifying cockpit ergonomics. Twin wheels / large wheels also aren't safer or easier re fatigue.

If I want to sit outboard these days I can sit anywhere using the autopilot remote control. We dont do this often.

The only large wheel / twin wheel justification that I can sympathize with is '... I want the racer look...'.

Of course if you want the simplest and most directly connected option then a tiller is superior to any wheel IMHO.