Why don't you race - honest?

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So, I’m not sure where your assertion comes from.

Did I say the highest? No. I said high rates. Ranked per capita alcohol consumption by the WHO Finland is 16 and Denmark 26, by comparison Canada is 40 while Pakistan is at the bottom of the list at 191.


Regarding drepression I would work off of suicide rates. Compared to some places it is high, but again I never said highest.

[Foolish]

At my club we have weekly (bi-weekly in winter) distance races that are much friendlier than the round-the-bouy races. Protests are very rare, and really only between the experienced boats; the rookies are given a pass. Nobody ever yells at the start line, even when things get jammed up. And since the races are long distance, there is never any congestion at turning marks. Our fleet has been building slowly over the years. Once in a while one of the competitive racers comes out and I am quick to remind them that this is friendly sailing. We don't require official handicap ratings; we'll come up with something for your boat. We even take into account the high cut of your roller furling jib and the barbecue on the pushpit.

A related matter is why many skippers sail at much less than potential. Why don't they fly a spinnaker in a perfect 15 knot breeze? Why do they motor from harbour to harbour? I find it frustrating on a beautiful sailing day to watch boat after boat motor by. There are even times when we are going in the same direction, and I beat them to the destination with my sails up.

Perhaps the answer to your question, and to mine, is that a large majority of skippers do not have any confidence in their sailing abilities. If we were to teach them how to sail a bit better, they might have enough confidence to give racing a try, and to put up their spinnakers in a nice breeze.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Foolish

Perhaps the answer to your question, and to mine, is that a large majority of skippers do not have any confidence in their sailing abilities. If we were to teach them how to sail a bit better, they might have enough confidence to give racing a try, and to put up their spinnakers in a nice breeze.

No, that's the racer in you talking. Come on, your boat tells the story.

Some guys simply are no competitive or simply do not care about racing all afternoon to win the cup. Plus when you do win, many times others are upset

The sad thing about some racers is that we/they can get a big ego due to winning most of the races in a certain area only to have it shattered when they place DFL in another

I remember headed out to race many times and the old monohull guys were already on the dock fixing something on their boat. When I returned later totally worn out they were still at it and happy as clams

I've found on this site that a cruiser's main goal is to arrive safely at their destination without breaking or over straining their boats. When they arrive in relation to another boat is meaningless

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by builder dan

I tried racing for a year for a mate got so bored going out round the buoy put up spinnaker sail home again race to the bar and spend 3 hours disecting each manouvre.Much rather plod along on my slow boat drinking coffee and eating chocolate biscuits.

Just loved your post Matey !!
Me on a busy day.

[Junk Viking]

The brutally honest truth:

Racers knows nothing useful about sailing, it’s a completely different sport.


Let me elaborate:

a) None of the main equipment know to racers are applicable to cruising:

1) The Bermuda rig is the most flimsy, faulty, expensive and badly engineered rig for cruising.
2) Carbon fiber is the most brittle and thus unsafe fiber to build boats and spars in.
3) Short deep keels are prone for breakage and bad directional stability.
4) Actually, any boat that actually measures favorable for competition is most likely completely unfit for use in the real world.

b) None of the main skills honed by racers are applicable to cruising:

1) Constant trimming and course adjustments are a waste of time.
2) Agressive and risky over canvassing is dangerous.
3) Flying a spinnaker is not relevant for cruisers.
4) Focussing on pushing for penalty has no application

c) None of the main behaviours exhibited by racers are applicable to cruising:

1) Impatience - just pisses people off and makes for a shitty life
2) Competitiveness - see 1)
3) Upgrade fever - will piss yourself off if you seriously go places


That said, I did have the pleasure to learn to match race by a very competitive but kind skipper.
He used to compete 14 footer (insane ultralight dual-trapeze sailing dinghy) on the European circuit quite successfully.
He brought our company team-building boat into world top 400 in a few years (top 25%).
However, none of it was applicable for cruising


I sail Lona, a 34’ German alu Reinke with a schooner junk rig.
It’s sturdy, versatile, trims easily at all angles including wing and wong for down wind.
It sails as if on rails with its long dual asymmetrical keels.
Sail reduction takes mere seconds from the cockpit.
All with a cup of coffee in one hand.
Now that is a cruiser!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

The brutally honest truth:

Racers knows nothing useful about sailing, it’s a completely different sport.

Ridiculous!

A racer knows how to sail the boat.

He just has to learn to chill out and enjoy ...

[zboss]

I may as well watch slugs fight. Seriously... what is the purpose? Its just as bad as NASCAR.

My boat gets me from point A to point B so I can go swimming, or diving, drinking, or other fun stuff.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by zboss

I may as well watch slugs fight. Seriously... what is the purpose? Its just as bad as NASCAR.

My boat gets me from point A to point B so I can go swimming, or diving, drinking, or other fun stuff.

It can be awesome though if you are at the stage of life where you are wanting to compete

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhe6vu2NZck

[Junk Viking]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Ridiculous!

A racer knows how to sail the boat.

He just has to learn to chill out and enjoy ...

No more difficult than teaching a mobster to successfully lead a tech company I suppose.

- Wrong skill set
- Wrong mindset
- Wrong connections
- Wrong tools

[Junk Viking]

I happened to watch the AC in New York.

Interesting machinery (I would hesitate to call them boats).
The machines has now become so specialized, that the competition wasn't really possible because of too little wind.

Interesting and spectacular but utterly useless.
What a waste of time, hype and money.



https://youtu.be/GwKeoUmT2AQ

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

No more difficult than teaching a mobster to successfully lead a tech company I suppose.

- Wrong skill set
- Wrong mindset
- Wrong connections
- Wrong tools

Good try.

After a guy gets his fill of racing, he can make an excellent cruiser.

You seem a bit upset toward the race scene........for most it's just a phase. That is as long as another cruising sailor doesn't get close to an old racer on the water on his boat


If so, IT"S ON!

[Interloper]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

I happened to watch the AC in New York.

Interesting machinery (I would hesitate to call them boats).
The machines has now become so specialized, that the competition wasn't really possible because of too little wind.

Interesting and spectacular but utterly useless.
What a waste of time, hype and money.

Interesting, I attended the Chicago ACWS and thoroughly enjoyed it. The wind didn't cooperate on Sat (1 race, decent wind though), but we had foiling conditions on Sun and especially Fri (two slow capsizes). It is highly specialized and so far beyond my abilities it's almost like watching a completely different sport. But I enjoy sailing, I can admire an AC45F and a 1930's J/Class and almost everything in between, I don't see a need to choose or criticize one over the other. I've even raced/cruised a dozen times on a 61' S&S racing schooner from the early 1930's - and loved that too.

[belizesailor]

I used to race a lot before I left the USA in 2004, but many popular cruising destinations have limited racing activity. As a result, Ive only participated in a few regattas (not serious races) since then.

I think the cruiser/racer debate is just as silly as the mono/cat debate. Just human nature I think...divide them into any kind of different categories and they will develop biases.

For me, racing/cruising/fishing...any excuse to be on the water is a good one.

Pic: "racing" on the Rio Dulce to Dennys Beach.

[CarolinaCalm]

Originally Posted by Interloper

Interesting, I attended the Chicago ACWS and thoroughly enjoyed it. The wind didn't cooperate on Sat (1 race, decent wind though), but we had foiling conditions on Sun and especially Fri (two slow capsizes). It is highly specialized and so far beyond my abilities it's almost like watching a completely different sport. But I enjoy sailing, I can admire an AC45F and a 1930's J/Class and almost everything in between, I don't see a need to choose or criticize one over the other. I've even raced/cruised a dozen times on a 61' S&S racing schooner from the early 1930's - and loved that too.

New to forum but I am not familiar with the term 'slow capsize' that you mentioned in post. Is this a typo or something new to understand?
Walt

[accomplice]

Originally Posted by Interloper

.... But I enjoy sailing, I can admire an AC45F and a 1930's J/Class and almost everything in between, I don't see a need to choose or criticize one over the other. I've even raced/cruised a dozen times on a 61' S&S racing schooner from the early 1930's - and loved that too.

Interloper, in my opinion the AC45F, a 1930's J/Class, and a 61' S&S racing schooner have more in common than either does to the average cruiser's boat. Those boats were (or are), at the time of their design, purpose built for racing.

Of course cars and boats are different, but nobody would confuse a 1930's race car with a modern race car, or confuse either one with a family sedan or an RV. Sure, some family sedans will do 150mph+, but I feel no urge to race in ours. If we're not taking a cruising vacation, we're probably taking a road-trip -- but not to a racetrack. Some families do -- that just isn't our thing, not to knock it for those who do either (sail racing or motor-racing). Different strokes....

Originally Posted by Foolish

A related matter is why many skippers sail at much less than potential. Why don't they fly a spinnaker in a perfect 15 knot breeze? Why do they motor from harbour to harbour? I find it frustrating on a beautiful sailing day to watch boat after boat motor by. There are even times when we are going in the same direction, and I beat them to the destination with my sails up.

Foolish, when you drive a car -- do you always have your right foot all the way to the floor? If not, why would you expect others to sail that way? I cannot speak for all cruisers, but when I am passaging or coastal-cruising getting to my destination fastest is nowhere near my top priority. Not only are the safety and comfort of my crew (and self) paramount, but also things break enough on their own without me pushing them needlessly. Furthermore, depending on what it is, when something breaks at sea, that can become serious -- and if it breaks while (coastal) cruising that can mean a disrupted vacation for a number of people. And for what? The pride of "beating" someone to cocktail hour? (hurry up and relax?!?)

I used our spinnaker much more on our 28' coastal cruiser than I do on our 58' long-distance cruiser. Not only does it take a larger crew to deploy or douse (I cannot do it myself, as I could on the old boat), but the stakes are higher. Every time I send crew forward on deck, I'm taking a risk. Even with professional crew, offshore COB can be a life-threatening situation -- much more so with non-professional sailors hundreds miles from the nearest SAR assets. It doesn't have to be an overboard situation -- I've had crew sustain permanent hand injury just from the spin pole! I want to be confident in the conditions significantly into the future (day or more) before I deploy the spinnaker -- and even then, only when the stars are aligned between wind, sea and crew and I can expect to get a few days use out of it. That the cruising boat you see isn't flying their chute doesn't mean their skipper is an idiot -- he may simply have very different motivations than a racer.

When you're out for an afternoon sail, the amount of effort you put into getting another quarter knot or so may be worth it because you can take pride in making the boat go faster. When you're looking at many days of sailing, that quarter knot is only 6nm a day (3-4% for us). If it takes a lot more effort, puts more strain on equipment and crew, makes the passage less relaxing, enjoyable or comfortable, makes cooking and sleeping harder, or exposes the crew to additional risk, that 6nm/day may not be worth it. Besides, the last few days of a passage I often to try to adjust our speed up or down to make landfall during daylight -- and it is generally safer, if in doubt, to slow to arrive at dawn instead of rushing to arrive before dusk.

I respect both the racer who wants to sail at 100% and the cruiser who chooses not to. They're both enjoying sailing and being on the water.