Why is sailing so formal?

[44'cruisingcat]

Sailing isn't intuitive! Boats sailing upwind, boats sailing faster than the wind, boats using lead to help them stay afloat...

Why would the jargon be intuitive?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Thalas

Jim, I have no doubts you'll win this debate by votes, but baseball lingo IS pretty cohesive and more importantly intuitive.... right, center, left field. fly ball, infield fly rule... and if someone knew nothing about baseball and were given just the basics and then were ask what "stealing a base" means, they could probably give a good guess. There is nothing intuitive about most sailing terms. Again, I'm not gonna win this war and nobody is going to develop a "metric system of sailing lingo" where phrases and uses tie together in cohesive and intuitive ways, but anyone who has sailed with newbies vs (insert most other hobbies) with newbies would have to concede that our lingo IS a barrier.

Clearly you have never had the experience of trying to explain baseball to a cricket loving Brit or Aussie!

And "right" field?? On the right if you are facing which way? It's on the pitcher's left... Maybe they should use port and starboard fields!

And "base"? It's a square bag stuffed with hay or some such, and not the base of anything. That's intuitive? Seems about as arbitrary as fore and aft to me... just words that are associated with items in use on a boat or a baseball field.

These things seem intuitive because you grew up with baseball as a big factor in the local culture. Kids who grow up in sailing families find the lingo pretty straight forward.

At any rate, for most sailors learning the terminology is part of the fun, and increasing one's vocabulary is always a good thing IMO.

BTW, did you eschew English and take up Esperanto (supposedly a logical language)?

Jim

[StuM]

The best rational argument for the use of jargon (whether in sailing or any other profession or passtime) that I've seen is:

"Words that are used only (or at least most commonly) within a particular profession are defined accurately by practitioners of that profession to mean something precise. Hearing a common word can lead many people to THINK they know what it means, and be slightly wrong, whereas a word they don't know will have to be defined, and can therefore be defined precisely."

Given the complexity of controls and actions required when sailing, such precision is important - especially in adverse conditions.

[thinwater]

Because it would take more words to say the same things less concisely in plain language. The beauty of language is that we can speak plainly when that is the best way to relate an idea, and with jargon when precision is important.

Silly. Sailing jargon is more direct and clear than plain language, if used correctly. What Stu said.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Because one day in a squall, you'll have a conversation like this:

"Pull on the rope!"

"Not that one, the other one . . ." "Yeah, that one. NO! The one next to it, the one through the pulley thing."

"Don't pull it out, pull it in!" "Now it's gotten wrapped around the wire." "Up front!" "On the left." "Not your left, my left!"

"Oh, geez, there's rocks!"

He'll understand the part about the rocks.

There is a reason we have coloured ropes on our boat

As for formal? well I think those in the Caribbean are allowed to wear planters for supper rather than full black tie, but you wouldn't want to see standards lowered too far now would you.

Peter

[sb1]

Language is beautiful and effective when it is succinct.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

I know... but why isn't it just called "sailing up wind?"

As others have said -- it IS called "sailing up wind". Tacking is different. It's changing course so that the wind crosses the bow, and moving around the sails to the other side, to correspond to the new wind direction.

Some activities have jargon which maybe doesn't add much meaning, but sailing terminology mostly contains quite precise and necessary information, about whatever is being discussed.

With knowledge about the activity, knowledge about the terminology comes naturally. A problem understanding the terminology usually indicates a lack of understanding of the substance of what is going on -- confusing tacking and going up wind being a perfect example.

As someone else commented:

Port and starboard are not the same as left and right. Left and right are relative to you (or whatever you designate); port and starboard are relative to the vessel.

If you refer to all the cordage on the boat as just "that rope" or "that line", you may fail to really identify it or describe what it does. "That rope there, which pulls that sail there up towards the top of that pole there" is extremely awkward, compared to "halyard", for example.

Tacking is a particular maneuver, as is gybing, heaving-to, heading off, etc., etc., etc., etc. I don't really understand why it should bother anyone, that these maneuvers have names.


Learning the terminology -- the language of sailing -- is a very small part of learning the whole craft. When you start to know the craft reasonably well, the terminology comes naturally.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Because one day in a squall, you'll have a conversation like this:

"Pull on the rope!"

"Not that one, the other one . . ." "Yeah, that one. NO! The one next to it, the one through the pulley thing."

"Don't pull it out, pull it in!" "Now it's gotten wrapped around the wire." "Up front!" "On the left." "Not your left, my left!"

"Oh, geez, there's rocks!"

He'll understand the part about the rocks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

hahahah!!!! Auroras' Nipple. LOLOLOL

What is interesting, is that the aureole is not, indeed, the nipple. Two different things.

Nor is a dorade box the same as the "vent thingy". The dorade box goes under the "vent thingy" and separates water from air so it doesn't get inside your boat.

Look, if you're not interested in speaking about anything with any precision, if you get along OK like that, then that's your own choice. But one day if you do need to describe something exactly, then very often you will want tools for that job -- precise terminology. Nipple -- aureole; posterior -- elbow; sometimes it's good to know, and to be able to describe, the difference.

[Hudson Force]

I'll continue with that question as the whether common jargon in other sports is intuitive?

Hail Mary, button hook, horse collar, boot leg, live ball, pooch kick, red zone, sack, flea flicker, wishbone.........

These are all terms with a much more recent development, but far from intuitive. Many would not even identify the sport when given these terms.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Clearly you have never had the experience of trying to explain baseball to a cricket loving Brit or Aussie!

...

http://www.melcarson.com/rules-of-cr...implified.html

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I'll continue with that question as the whether common jargon in other sports is intuitive?

Hail Mary, button hook, horse collar, boot leg, live ball, pooch kick, red zone, sack, flea flicker, wishbone.........

These are all terms with a much more recent development, but far from intuitive. Many would not even identify the sport when given these terms.

Indeed.

And making the terminology intuitively understandable, to someone who doesn't know anything about the subject, is probably not even possible. Simple terminology is not a shortcut to knowledge.

You could say the same thing about terms like "carburetor", "intake manifold", "rocker arm", "wrist pin", and so forth. Someone who doesn't understand anything about how engines work, might object "Why are you being so 'formal', using all that jargon? Why don't you just say it in plain language -- 'that doohicky that mixes gas and air?' or 'that wobbly thingy that presses the valves down'", etc., etc. But once the person has gained some understanding about how engines work, the terminology is just not a problem. It's not terminology, but ignorance, which is the root problem.

[double u]

as an autodidact & after a few miles, knowing a lot of "sailing terminology" in 3 languages, the only superfluous terms I find are port & starboard (& we always used left & right ourselves)
of course many nautical terms could be replaced by a "graphic description", but this would make as much sense as engineers replacing the term "camshaft" with...I don't know, use your phantasy, it's going to be much less handy than the "specialised exclusionary jargon".
so please newbies: don't try to reinvent the wheel, if we-all use terms like sheet & halyard there are only two possibilities: we-all are idiots or it is justified.
(& if all these explanations don't satisfy you: in your own interest I hope a surgeon operating on you does use "exclusionary language" like "kidney" or "lung" when working on you, & not...

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

Why is everything in sailing so formal? Everything from the techniques to the names of various items.

Is it just held over from the old days?

Yes, it's very weird.

You give a child a toy and he adores it, makes up adventures with it, talks to is and will sleep with it.

But give a toy to an old man and they think they have to justify playing with it by being serious, grumpy, having special knowledge that they won't pass into people they perceive as unqualified, a special language, even a special hat, a secret exclusive expensive club where they drink the club's rum, wine etc.

There is a LOT of bulltwaddle in sailing.

Take my advice and have a boat and treat it like a child. 😁

[TooCoys]

Originally Posted by double u

so please newbies: don't try to reinvent the wheel, if we-all use terms like sheet & halyard there are only two possibilities: we-all are idiots or it is .

Please don't think I was trying to change the jargon, or reinvent the wheel, that wasn't the intent of my original post. And I didn't mean to start any kind of argument if that's where this thread is heading.

I just made an observation, and truly wanted to know why it is what it is. If it's a practicality thing, I can understand that.