Why people may not help you!

[old frog]

The preceding several pages of this thread are yet another reason as to "Why people may not help you!": Concern of the assistance going off track, mired in minutia, name called or blamed. Checking out of this one.

[Pelagic]

What may be missing in this discussion is the concept of "responsibility".

Do we help other sailors or people in need because if we didn't...... We would feel somehow responsible for their fate?

Do wealthy or powerful people tend to be aloof to avoid being overwhelmed by that same feeling of responsibility from people whose lives always seem to be in crisis management?

[robert sailor]

Of course wealth is addictive, no question. With wealth comes more power and more choices. But as we all know a little more wealth is never enough, bit like drugs. I have a very wealthy friend who told me that he's not really sure if his friends are really his friends. He felt if he lost his wealth he would lose most of his friends, his friends are from the wealthy side of the table and he of course is right, he would lose most of them as he would be dropped from the "club".
Speaking about helping others, I've been fooling around with this cruising thing for a lot of years and I have given and received more offers of help than in any other part of my life. Not all cruisers areas are equal, when you get off the beaten path your response to giving help goes up by a large margin.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by boatman61

And here we have the Classic Blame Game playing out that is thrust on us by the Political class and the media who's polls and research results are shaped by the way they artfully phrase their questions..
I cannot speak for other countries like the USA etc however..
Last night we.. the Baby Boomers were to blame for the state of the Education system and the fact that while it was free for us, they have to pay..
A housing crisis that has private property beyond the reach of all but the lucky ones with parental assistance.. nothing to do with no credible building program.. no its the selfish old folks who sweated blood for 25+yrs to buy and overpriced pile of brick.. and want to keep living in it.
A failing and over pressed Health Service because apparently us old fogies are eating away the resources..
A crumbling infrastructure that's affects road and rail.. Blah Blah Blah..
No one blames the Governments past and present for the billions wasted in failed projects and State contracts handed out to cronies in the 'Club'..
No one blames them for the trillions wasted in foreign adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and all the other pointless little wars we waged around the world under the False Flag of National Security since WW2.. while the half dozen people who own the worlds media stoke the hate and fear for their own agenda and gain..
Look at us on here.. having a pop at each other just because some University tosspot or other is being paid by someone to produce research data which suits their (the gods on the hill) agenda which is to sow discourse and prevent joined up thinking by the masses, and how well it is working..
And we take the bait every bludi time..
SH$TE... They're right.. It is Our Bludi Fault..

Boatie I have a real issue with many things you posted but mostly the way you seem to trivialize the lives and deaths of many good men that volunteered to defend your freedoms. I am a veteran of the united states navy . I strongly disagree with many of your statements throughout this thread but I would defend to the death your right to say them.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Understand completely and tend to agree, but don't confuse this with philanthropy, it's actually tax minimization.

Rubbish--Tax deductability may be something of an inducement to charitable giving but, considering tax rates, the effect on a contributor's taxes is only a modest to moderate percentage of dollar contributions. In the US, depending upon State, ranging from 40% to 79% for those that fall into the "well to do/wealthy" category. In fact, we, and many we know, make sizable charitable contributions (a) because we can afford to and feel that we should given our own good fortune--although much of that arose from years of 70-100 or more hour work weeks when staff were paid (trickle down as it were) and we earned nothing--and, (b) because we would rather see our contributions go to causes or purposes we deem worthy, rather than into a never satiated black hole "government".

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Boatie I have a real issue with many things you posted but mostly the way you seem to trivialize the lives and deaths of many good men that volunteered to defend your freedoms. I am a veteran of the united states navy . I strongly disagree with many of your statements throughout this thread but I would defend to the death your right to say them.

Name one Freedom that was threatened.. then look behind the scenes at what created that 'Alleged Threat'...
I just happen not to be guiled by the bullcrap and propaganda that created many of these 'Adventures' to protect our Freedoms..
Now the Falkland's War was in my eye's justified (not in America's who wanted us to let them go to Argentina).. our Territory had been invaded and UK citizens were deprived of their freedoms.
But speaking as a former member of an armed service.. one's active participation in a war does not automatically make it a Just War..
Sorry..
PS; The UK military has not had a Draft system I believe since the end of WW2.. we are all 'Volunteers'.. and I'm grateful to my father for fighting behind Japanese lines to keep India free.. and the 'Empire'.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Name one Freedom that was threatened.. then look behind the scenes at what created that 'Alleged Threat'...
I just happen not to be guiled by the bullcrap and propaganda that created many of these 'Adventures' to protect our Freedoms..
Now the Falkland's War was in my eye's justified (not in America's who wanted us to let them go to Argentina).. our Territory had been invaded and UK citizens were deprived of their freedoms.
But speaking as a former member of an armed service.. one's active participation in a war does not automatically make it a Just War..
Sorry..
PS; The UK military has not had a Draft system I believe since the end of WW2.. we are all 'Volunteers'.. and I'm grateful to my father for fighting behind Japanese lines to keep India free.. and the 'Empire'.

Boatie..in the USA war has become a business and a very successful one at that.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Name one Freedom that was threatened.. then look behind the scenes at what created that 'Alleged Threat'...
I just happen not to be guiled by the bullcrap and propaganda that created many of these 'Adventures' to protect our Freedoms..
Now the Falkland's War was in my eye's justified (not in America's who wanted us to let them go to Argentina).. our Territory had been invaded and UK citizens were deprived of their freedoms.
But speaking as a former member of an armed service.. one's active participation in a war does not automatically make it a Just War..
Sorry..
PS; The UK military has not had a Draft system I believe since the end of WW2.. we are all 'Volunteers'.. and I'm grateful to my father for fighting behind Japanese lines to keep India free.. and the 'Empire'.

Boatie I never said that wars are always justified . But as a.former member of a nations millitary service you should see my point of view on it . Im not talking about the political machine just.the men on the ground when the shooting happens. (Was is a.dirty bussiness) btw thank you for your service to the people of your country.

[Captain Bill]

I can't believe the BS regarding trickle down economics. No rich man ever created a job just to give it to somebody, They did it to make money. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing at all wrong with an entrepreneur that manages to make himself rich. The ones I object to are the Executives of publicly held companies that think they deserve special treatment. They are Effing employees of the stock holders just like every one else in the company down to the lowest paid employee. Voting each other golden parachutes when they F up is just plain old ordinary theft. It's not their money!!!!!!

I once worked for an entrepreneur that built a company from scratch over about 18 years and was doing very well. He decided to take the company public and the stock went for about $40 a share at the IPO and stayed there for a short time. He pocketed about $2 billion on the deal which I do not begrudge him at all. He stayed on as CEO and basically ran the company into the dirt, at least on paper. According to everything that was being said the company was doing terribly. The stock dropped to less than $10 a share at which time he promptly bought it all back and took the company private again. Within a couple of months after going private according to all the internal information the company was doing wonderfully again, making money hand over fist. Imagine that. IMO he just stole 1.5 billion dollars from the stock holders. I was hired to deal with a specific problem. The department I ran had a salary cost of $1.2 million and in 3 years was making $32 million a year. Now it would seem like making a profit of 30.8 million a year off my department it might even seem like a good idea to keep paying those salaries just to make sure things were working properly. Not on your life. As soon as the company thought things could be managed by lower paid people we were gone in a heartbeat. Even making more than 25 times our collective salaries wasn't enough to make them keep us around. I did hear from someone who was still with the company that every thing we had done was falling into disrepair and things were returning to the disarray that caused them to hire me in the first place, so I did get the last laugh. An entrepreneur only creates jobs that he/she can not or don't want to do themselves and if those jobs will make them more money.

In a recent right wing article it was pointed out that in the US the top 1% of tax payers pay 40% of the income tax and that wasn't fair (they were being overtaxed). What they neglected to point out was that the top 1% of the tax payers had 60% of the income. When they start paying 61% of the income tax then they will have something to complain about. In the meantime they should keep their mouths shut and stop complaining.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I kinda dispute this analogy about wealth = rationality.. wealth accumulation is more of an addiction I feel.. like nicotine, alcohol or heroin when taken to the extreme.. always need that next fix.. or bigger hit..

I've earned very good money in the past which could have put me in a much higher bracket but I've never felt the need for that.. or ownership of property.

Not sure if its because having spent my first 15 odd years living in a country where true poverty exists in over 80% of the population, so what the West considers borderline poverty subconsciously for me stimulates a sense of comfortable living.. that and my addiction to constant change of environment and adventure.

I have spent most of my money and spare time on children, wine, women, song and charity. To hell with the illusion of security.

Accepting the things we cannot change,such as the ability to control the masses through their belief in the magic of religion, the worth of shiny rocks and their fear of the unknown, was my first step to understanding what I should do with my short time.

One of those is to by you a drink, should we ever meet, old sod.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I can't believe the BS regarding trickle down economics. No rich man ever created a job just to give it to somebody, They did it to make money. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing at all wrong with an entrepreneur that manages to make himself rich. The ones I object to are the Executives of publicly held companies that think they deserve special treatment. They are Effing employees of the stock holders just like every one else in the company down to the lowest paid employee. Voting each other golden parachutes when they F up is just plain old ordinary theft. It's not their money!!!!!!

I once worked for an entrepreneur that built a company from scratch over about 18 years and was doing very well. He decided to take the company public and the stock went for about $40 a share at the IPO and stayed there for a short time. He pocketed about $2 billion on the deal which I do not begrudge him at all. He stayed on as CEO and basically ran the company into the dirt, at least on paper. According to everything that was being said the company was doing terribly. The stock dropped to less than $10 a share at which time he promptly bought it all back and took the company private again. Within a couple of months after going private according to all the internal information the company was doing wonderfully again, making money hand over fist. Imagine that. IMO he just stole 1.5 billion dollars from the stock holders. I was hired to deal with a specific problem. The department I ran had a salary cost of $1.2 million and in 3 years was making $32 million a year. Now it would seem like making a profit of 30.8 million a year off my department it might even seem like a good idea to keep paying those salaries just to make sure things were working properly. Not on your life. As soon as the company thought things could be managed by lower paid people we were gone in a heartbeat. Even making more than 25 times our collective salaries wasn't enough to make them keep us around. I did hear from someone who was still with the company that every thing we had done was falling into disrepair and things were returning to the disarray that caused them to hire me in the first place, so I did get the last laugh. An entrepreneur only creates jobs that he/she can not or don't want to do themselves and if those jobs will make them more money.

In a recent right wing article it was pointed out that in the US the top 1% of tax payers pay 40% of the income tax and that wasn't fair (they were being overtaxed). What they neglected to point out was that the top 1% of the tax payers had 60% of the income. When they start paying 61% of the income tax then they will have something to complain about. In the meantime they should keep their mouths shut and stop complaining.

Unfortunately some of the golden parachutes go to those that run a company down the tubes.

[rognvald]

"In a recent right wing article it was pointed out that in the US the top 1% of tax payers pay 40% of the income tax and that wasn't fair (they were being overtaxed). What they neglected to point out was that the top 1% of the tax payers had 60% of the income. When they start paying 61% of the income tax then they will have something to complain about. In the meantime they should keep their mouths shut and stop complaining." Captain Bill

Captain Bill is online now Report Post



So when the wealthy people/corporations start paying 61% of the income tax they will move their money/corporations out of the country with a resulting loss of jobs to the American worker and the overall health of the American economy? Is that YOUR idea of trickle down economics???? We've seen how well that worked in the last eight years.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"In a recent right wing article it was pointed out that in the US the top 1% of tax payers pay 40% of the income tax and that wasn't fair (they were being overtaxed). What they neglected to point out was that the top 1% of the tax payers had 60% of the income. When they start paying 61% of the income tax then they will have something to complain about. In the meantime they should keep their mouths shut and stop complaining." Captain Bill

Captain Bill is online now Report Post



So when the wealthy people/corporations start paying 61% of the income tax they will move their money/corporations out of the country with a resulting loss of jobs to the American worker and the overall health of the American economy? Is that YOUR idea of trickle down economics???? We've seen how well that worked in the last eight years.

Not interested in going political but job loses in manufacturing has been going on for much longer than 8 years. The world has changed and many of these jobs will never come back. The Wallstreet greed that inoculated the whole world in financial crisis forever changed everything, no easy answers, it's much more complex now.

[Brob2]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"Rockefeller and Carnegie were egotists. First Rockefeller Center and Carnegie Hall. The endowments came later when they had nothing else to do with the wealth attained off the backs of the worker. An egotistic attempt at immortality." Cadence

Cadence,
If ego built Rockefeller and Carnegie Hall, I am an advocate of ego. If endowments came when they had "nothing else to do with the wealth," then I am an advocate of the use of "old" money as a source for public good. If wealth came "off the back of the worker," I am an advocate of this system because it creates income and opportunity for those who performed the work.
Good luck and safe sailing.

The debate over the cause of J.D. Rockefeller's transformation from an unscrupulous and pitiless industrialist to a benefactor is an interesting one (at least to me) but there is no doubt that his and Carnegie's great wealth was built upon the poorly paid and often dangerous work of laborers who had few other options. Carnegie was known for discharging employees without compensation who were unable to work after being maimed on the job. Appeasing one's conscience or god by building libraries and whatever to my mind does not make amends for poor treatment given to employees who have no other place to turn. I don't know if there are more Henry Ford's or Andrew Carnegies in the billionaires club these days but I see in Canada too many of the latter.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

1. Does everything including being nice to other people need to have some sort of political dogma attached?

2. My wife and I view everyone we meet as being the same until they prove otherwise... black, brown, white, young, old, gay, straight, rich, poor or somewhere in between, it doesn't matter to us. Everyone gets a chance and a helping hand if needed.

3. We don't give a damn about any left wing moonbat research.

4. But to you and your "PhD (Pile it high and Deeper) brainiac" friends.... you guys come to the first encounter with pre-conceived bigoted bias where nobody gets a fair chance. You guys see the fellow in the big boat or fancy car and already have him all figured out before you even meet. Of course they're not going to help you when you get into trouble if you're looking down your noses at them with a look of distain on you face. Your research is rubbish research.

#2 is a very good analysis, and fair, fair, fair.

See any dichotomy with #s 1, 3 & 4?