Winterizing... Are These Steps Critical

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

However I would encourage you to call your manufacturer, just make sure you talk to a scientist or engineer and not the call center guy who's going to be instructed to treat everyone as the lowest common denominator same as their bottle warnings

.

I am a chemical engineer and have talked to the technical folks at various formulators about their products and have worked directly with many of them in my professional capacity.

To state the obvious, you are free to believe whatever you prefer but not to so condescendingly assume you shouldn’t ‘walk your own talk’ regarding learning something.

For anyone bewildered about this debate or the proper use and limitations of propylene based glycols, don’t allow mixing and talk to the formulator before misusing their product.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I am a chemical engineer and have talked to the technical folks at various formulators about their products and have worked directly with many of them in my professional capacity.

To state the obvious, you are free to believe whatever you prefer but not to so condescendingly assume you shouldn’t ‘walk your own talk’ regarding learning something.

For anyone bewildered about this debate or the proper use and limitations of propylene based glycols, don’t allow mixing and talk to the formulator before misusing their product.

If you are a chemical engineer, then maybe you could explain to the good people here the mechanism which produces sudden loss of freeze protection if you dilute polypropylene glycol "even a little". So I guess you are saying that the freeze charts and dilution curves I posted are wrong?



I will be very happy to learn something new, if there is something in this which I don't understand, and I'm sure others will as well.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Unfortunately, some myths are hard to correct, this being one.



Clearly you wont believe what I said so ask the manufacturer (s) why they specifically list among the cautions on labels the words "do not dilute". There is a lesson therein only people who think they know everything won't learn.



I'm just trying to help people from making a mistake. That is a lesson worth learning.

Probably the biggest reason a manufacturer would specify "Do not dilute", is if the product fails to perform, and the system freezes, if they find any trace of water, they can deny any liability, because the user did not follow their instructions.

The other reason, would be to get the user to at least attempt to remove water before application, in the hope that the dilution will be minimal, and will meet the needs of the temps encountered.

I see all kinds of DIY boaters, who make no effort to remove water from systems before pumping antifreeze, in a climate where boats are on the hard, and temps easily reach -25C (-13F) for 2-3 days in a row.

[billknny]

Oh for the love of heaven people.... You are arguing over silliness.

Let's be clear... you can buy propylene glycol either pure, or prediluted. If you buy it pure, then you NEED to dilute it before you use it (typically 50/50, but that depends on your climate). If you buy it prediluted you do NOT add extra water. It's not rocket science (it's not even chemical engineering).

MOST of the "pink" winterizing solution you buy at the store is prediluted and ready to use. A small bit of dilution as it mixes through your system will not greatly affect its freezing point, but you shouldn't dilute it before use.

Why are you all making this so hard???

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I am a chemical engineer and have talked to the technical folks at various formulators about their products and have worked directly with many of them in my professional capacity.

To state the obvious, you are free to believe whatever you prefer but not to so condescendingly assume you shouldn’t ‘walk your own talk’ regarding learning something.

For anyone bewildered about this debate or the proper use and limitations of propylene based glycols, don’t allow mixing and talk to the formulator before misusing their product.

Hey, we've begged you to have a chemical engineering level discussion about this and in response you've provided only insults and unsupported assertions in response to detailed curves and chemistry discussions. Your responses and your tone are quite honestly baffling and I just don't believe they are representative of the kind, respectful, intelligent person I believe you to be, and especially not representative of someone with a chemical engineering degree!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

Oh for the love of heaven people.... You are arguing over silliness.

Let's be clear... you can buy propylene glycol either pure, or prediluted. If you buy it pure, then you NEED to dilute it before you use it (typically 50/50, but that depends on your climate). If you buy it prediluted you do NOT add extra water. It's not rocket science (it's not even chemical engineering).

MOST of the "pink" winterizing solution you buy at the store is prediluted and ready to use. A small bit of dilution as it mixes through your system will not greatly affect its freezing point, but you shouldn't dilute it before use.

Why are you all making this so hard???

That exactly corresponds to my understanding, and I never thought it was rocket science, but you never know -- we'll see what the chemical engineer has to tell us.


"Do not dilute" simply means you don't need to dilute it -- it's premixed. It does not indeed mean, as far as I understand, that a little additional dilution will make it suddenly lose its ability to lower the freezing temperature of the solution.


Knowing that there was plenty of water in all my systems, especially in the raw water cooling part of my engine, I bought 100% propylene glycol from a chemical supply house (cheaper, too), and used that, knowing it would be diluted in the system.


But unless the freeze tables are lying, even the pre-mix so-called "-50C" stuff is ok with quite a bit of further dilution, unless you have a boat on the hard up where Rod is, with -25C temperatures. For most of the rest of us, particularly if we're in the water, this degree of protection will not be needed.

[CarlF]

The OP didn't mention the dinghy engine.

This is not a freeze issue if you stand upright and give a few pulls to get the salt water out.

There's other greasing and winterizing you could do but most people don't.

But you very much want to drain the gas out of the carb if the gas has ethanol in it. If ethanol gas sits for more than about three months, you'll need a new carburetor or expensive ultrasonic carburetor cleaning in the spring. Running the outboard out of gas doesn't do it. You need to find the screw on the carb to drain it.

Also the gasoline stabilizers really don't work very well. Best to empty the gas tanks into a car and buy fresh in the spring.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by billknny

Oh for the love of heaven people.... You are arguing over silliness.

Let's be clear... you can buy propylene glycol either pure, or prediluted. If you buy it pure, then you NEED to dilute it before you use it (typically 50/50, but that depends on your climate). If you buy it prediluted you do NOT add extra water. It's not rocket science (it's not even chemical engineering).

MOST of the "pink" winterizing solution you buy at the store is prediluted and ready to use. A small bit of dilution as it mixes through your system will not greatly affect its freezing point, but you shouldn't dilute it before use.

Why are you all making this so hard???

I don't believe anyone here is contemplating intentionally mixing water with propylene glycol anti-freeze.

I believe the dilution referred to is the consequential dilution from pumping the glycol through a system that has not been completely drained of water.

One method to be reasonably sure, is to measure the glycol concentration strength at the outlet of the system the glycol is being pumped through.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I don't believe anyone here is contemplating intentionally mixing water with propylene glycol anti-freeze.

I believe the dilution referred to is the consequential dilution from pumping the glycol through a system that has not been completely drained of water.

One method to be reasonably sure, is to measure the glycol concentration strength at the outlet of the system the glycol is being pumped through.

Indeed.


I use a cheap refractometer for this, which has scales for both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol. Like this: https://www.chemworld.com/Glycol-Ref...r-p/cw-gr1.htm


Note also that freeze protection is not the same as burst protection.


What is cool about glycols is that they not only lower the freezing point of the solution with water, they also reduce the expansion of the solution compared to pure water, even below the freezing point of the solution. So a given solution will provide burst protection at a lower temperature than the freezing point of the solution.



Just 24% propylene glycol provides burst protection down to -18C, although the freezing point of a 24/76 PG/water solution is about -9C.



http://media.blueridgecompany.com/do...ercentages.pdf

[Bbolino]

Every step you asked about is critical and don't believe anyone who says it isn't. I have seen too much freezing damage in boats and buildings

Every water system should be drained and either blown out to insure there is no water left of filled with anti freeze. That goes for raw water cooling systems as well - the Chesapeake Bay has frozen over multiple times

Small quantities of water left in will freeze and do damage - because of the way freezing action takes place there isn't "room" for expansion when it freezes

Delaware winter weather is more than capable of doing extensive freeze damage.

Ethylene glycol is considered a hazardous waste and not allowed to be discharged anywhere. Do not use it for winterizing

If you refer to the freezing point charts, a 50% mixture of water and propylene glycol has a freezing point of about -60F

[JBsurfin]

Wow, never thought it was all that hard to winterize? I'm in NJ. I go to the store and buy a few gallons of pink -50 marked for RV water systems and a few gallons of pink -50 marked for engines.. One gets pumped through the entire water system(less the hot water heater that is drained and by-passed) the other goes through the engine via the raw water intake hose. The strainer gets drained and seacock closed. My small AC unit gets blown out via a shop vac . Last the positive lead on the batteries are taken off once fully charged. Takes all but about 1.5 hrs and NEVER had any issues in the spring. Its not rocket science.

[Colonel Bob]

My Jeanneau 42DS is moored in Herrington Harbor, little south of you. We can get as much as 3" of ice in the marina but normal tidal rise and fall keeps about a five inch margin of clear water around the hull.


I spend the better part of a day winterizing with West Marine "pink" AF. I've made fittings that let me connect a bucket of AF to the fresh water line right at the pump, as well as the AC raw water pumps and engine/genset raw water lines. I also made a bypass for the hot water tank. I run the water tanks empty as well as the hot water, then install the bypass. That way you don't a lot of time and fresh water flushing pink out of your tanks. I just shut the seacocks, clean the strainers and then run each tap, shower, head, etc until I see pink. Same with the engine/genset. I also remove the impellers. Don't forget to run some AF through the shower drains. Do a pump out and rinse of your holding tanks and then flush some AF into the tank. Doing all this takes 14-15 gallons of pink AF but there is no untreated water, raw or fresh, inside the boat. Last year I totally forgot the Purewater tap I installed in the galley and the filter body split wide open.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The average low temperature in Wilmington in the coldest month, January, is only -4.1C, with average high +4C. Is there really much risk of anything freezing inside a boat in the water in such a climate?

Was in Deming NM with our RV. Similar average January low is around 28F (pretty close to -4C)...We experienced a week where the HIGH was -5F (way below -4C).

As in the old Clint Eastwood movie...you feeling lucky?

PS: if you can get access to the tank, consider using a shop vac to get it fully dry and then pull the outlet hose and stick it in the jug of antifreeze. If you bypass the hot water heater (and fully drain it), should only take a couple of gallons to do the fresh water system.

[eemahoney]

I live in Florida and keep my boat in Cleveland, winterizing is key.

I never felt comfortable with drain and pressure blow, I always drain the flush with -100 Propylene Glycol. It will dilute up to 50/50 and be good for -50.

Low spots in the lines can trap water, while there is plenty of room for expansion. The antifreeze is cheap enough and safe enough to avoid the risk. You can even make a recycling system if you want, I use a large garbage can and a wash down pump.

Much cheaper than freeze damage.

[sailoray531]

I drain and run antifreeze through the raw water engine cooling system and the fresh water tanks. I pump out the wastewater tanks but do not put antifreeze through the toilets because of concern it will damage the seals. I already seem to be having to rebuild or replace my toilet pump too often. Is this a concern for others?