Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux, on the RM construction notes you mention that it is very unique because the whole interior is part of the structure. I recognize that's this isn't the case in the high production boats but a stick built boats interior is also part of the structure. Every cabinet,every closet, every piece of furniture is tabbed to the hull or deck or both.. one reason they are very strong, like the RM. Nice looking boat by the way, unique construction with plywood in this day and age. Nothing weak about plywood...the British Mosquito bomber was built from plywood and was one of the best performing aircraft in its day.

The French have a long tradition building boats in plywood, now plywood epoxy and they have several very popular small old cruisers built in plywood.

Some top NA designed many cruising boats on that material, that the French call CP, mostly for amateur boat building or small shipyards and even as race boats. The most know of those NA is Marc Lombard that does not design only boats in CP but many types of boats including many Jeanneau.

The RM is the only one that mass produce them but there are many made by small shipyards.

Look at this baby, an already old design in racing terms, that in 2007 won some of the main French regatta races:




Or the TP 44 designed by another NA and made here:
Voilier TP44 Pichavant : bateau de croisière hauturière - chantier naval Bretagne


Or this old class 40, one of the first boats to showed that chines had advantages for solo racers:

or this one:

This:

and this

[dfelsent]

So there are three (and more I am sure) threads going now
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-178620.html
This thread itself:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...gn-177652.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ge-178734.html
that are all circling around a slightly different issue than the original.

What is your personal choice when the options seem to be:
Fast and disposable
Fast and expensive
Slow and old and a tank
Slow and new and a semi-tank and expensive

I personally chose a (moderately) slow old school tank. Budget, taste, and all that. She was purpose built as a long term cruiser for two. In 1972. She's comfortable as hell. I looked at fast and newer as well. Disposable was not on the table (for me.)

This is not meant as a criticism of anyone else's personal choices.
We all know stuff happens. Things become a Charlie Foxtrot. All boats are compromises.

In these three threads I have seen people extol the virtues of the fast cruiser. There are many. I have seen people show the consequences of the structure required to be a fast cruiser meeting an implacable object. (bridge, ocean)

I have seen people expound on the vices of slowness. (weather exposure)
I have seen people extol the virtues of a tank. (The boat gets to shore even if the crew gets rescued)

How have you personally in your boat purchase decisions come to terms with the contradictions?

I have sailed ocean racing tris, cruising cats, fast monos, dinghys, very traditional wooden boats. They are all fun in their own way. Power boats are fun too.

My choice was driven by budget, purpose, goals, age, and taste.

You?
+

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Since you mentioned docking, and windrush is interested in twin rudder designs, allow me to chime in.

Twin rudder boats SUCK MASSIVELY around the marina. Think about it, the prop's on the centerline, and the rudders are way outboard. There is zero control unless the boat's making at least a couple of knots. There's no putting the wheel over and giving the engine a shot to kick the stern in-the water from the prop goes down the middle, missing the rudders.

A thruster helps (we don't have one), but still, the lack of low speed control is an issue. We have a good deal of anxiety when docking in a tight marina in wind, which never happened on any of the other boats.

I'm saying this as a guy who drives a 170' fishing boat around for a living in Alaska. I'm a good boat driver, but the 2 rudders cause some problems.

I like them at sea a lot, but at the dock? Nope.

TJ

I agree wit that even if some friends with twin rudder boats say that it is not a problem. But they surely don't turn on the same circle as a single rudder boat.

I don't think however that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and I have a boat with a single rudder.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

What is your personal choice when the options seem to be:
Fast and disposable
Fast and expensive
Slow and old and a tank
Slow and new and a semi-tank and expensive

The new slow is much faster than the old slow. The concept of what is slow changed with time.

And the conclusion you seem to have reached is that old boats are cheap and new boats are expensive. Not surprising.

Regarding tank building and old, there is a reason why many insurance companies don't insure boats with more than 30 years old and believe me that is not because they dislike old designed boats but because old boats sunk more than newer boats. Money is what concerns them and they don't make money with less reliable boats.

This thread is not about old boats and new boats but about classic design and new design.

[dfelsent]

Originally Posted by Polux

The new slow is much faster than the old slow. The concept of what is slow changed with time.

And the conclusion you seem to have reached is that old boats are cheap and new boats are expensive. Not surprising.

Regarding tank building and old, there is a reason why many insurance companies don't insure boats with more than 30 years old and believe me that is not because they dislike old designed boats but because old boats sunk more than newer boats. Money is what concerns them and they don't make money with less reliable boats.

I don't think old boats are cheap and New are expensive. For a given quality perhaps yes. But my point is that the quality old boats ( the bad ones have been scrapped) and two year old current production new boats can end up in similar price ranges and be rather different in terms of durability.
There is no question in my mind that dollars per knot of speed has gone down significantly in the past decades. Dollars per durability? The build quality thread implies otherwise. I expect that inflation adjusted that will be driven by consumer demand.

[SV Windrush II]

We are living in one of those "Old tanks" hahaha

Even though I still love the classic look and character, it's about time I try newer technology. the Windrush II has taken me to places I've only dreamed of and had bumped off coral, rocks and waves breaking across the cabin and never flinched except for me trying to hang on. I know she is a sold old wooden boat, but she needs a rigging upgrade and I would like to spend more time sailing than sanding, painting and varnishing which seams to never end.
Infact in April she will go back in the hard for a month to paint the top sides that got pretty beat up across the Pacific.

So I started this thread because I'm trying to decide whether to get into a 80s to 90s performance cruiser or go for the modern pizza shaped boats that are the new technology of sailing. Of course that is the design that's winning races, but I'm still not totally convinced they are best for overall cruising, although Some of the posters here are getting closer to winning me over hahaha

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree wit that even if some friends with twin rudder boats say that it is not a problem. But they surely don't turn on the same circle as a single rudder boat.

I don't think however that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and I have a boat with a single rudder.

I agree that there are advantages. Once we're off the dock, it's great, one rudder is always n the right place.

I'm not saying it's a HUGE problem, but our boat is way harder to maneuver than boats of similar size and a conventional underbody. The distance between the rudders matters too. Ours are about 8 feet apart at the tips. Nowhere near the prop wash. Many of the twin rudder boats have them closer together. I'm sure this helps. Here's a shot of our underbody, this might help explain.

Anyway, I still say that 2 rudders and no thruster (on a 55' boat) make life harder than we would like it. At least I should say that they cause problems in a small marina that needs a sharp turn in a narrow fairway.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

We are living in one of those "Old tanks" hahaha


So I started this thread because I'm trying to decide whether to get into a 80s to 90s performance cruiser or go for the modern pizza shaped boats that are the new technology of sailing. Of course that is the design that's winning races, but I'm still not totally convinced they are best for overall cruising, although Some of the posters here are getting closer to winning me over hahaha

Oh, come on over to our end of the pool. You know you want to... You're looking at some pretty high dollar boats, so it's not like you're going to be forced to buy a fragile eggshell. Maybe you'll have to go a few years older than you want for the same price point, but so what?

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Oh, come on over to our end of the pool. You know you want to... You're looking at some pretty high dollar boats, so it's not like you're going to be forced to buy a fragile eggshell. Maybe you'll have to go a few years older than you want for the same price point, but so what?

Planning a trip in May

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Actually Polux, that was a new boat, looks like their last one from the factory, not commissioned yet. Gotta read the whole add

But in any case I am all for the Pogo concept but it resembles too much like a daysailor to me. And my wife would never live in it because it doesn't in any way resemble a home. Would be great as a vacation boat that we could hang out on for a week or so and enter some races for fun. But long term cruising and living in and inviting our friend over to hang out on well... not so much. I'm hoping one of the companies like Pogo will come out with a hi performance cruiser with a model that has the comfort features but still not loose the performance. Another words if I could get the interior of a Jene and the Performance of a Pogo then I will jump inline

You might look at one of the Aerodynes, in it's various sizes. They're production boats that have decent interiors, but that are still plenty fast. And they routinely get good reviews when evaluated by various sailing magazines. Rodger Martin, their designer, has done some amazing stuff.
www.aerodyne.fi & www.rodgermartindesign.com

TJ D on your boat, in regards to it's handling, do you have a reversible pitching prop, such as the MaxProp? As they help a lot on boats that don't have any prop wash over the rudder. One's such as yours that you have to throw & catch them in order to handle them in close quarters. Since the huge amount of thrust that the prop instantly develops in reverse is really handy. They surely help me when I'm driving such boats.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

TJ D on your boat, in regards to it's handling, do you have a reversible pitching prop, such as the MaxProp? As they help a lot on boats that don't have any prop wash over the rudder. One's such as yours that you have to throw & catch them in order to handle them in close quarters. Since the huge amount of thrust that the prop instantly develops in reverse is really handy. They surely help me when I'm driving such boats.

We've got a 2 bladed max-prop.

I'm probably overstating the difficulties, we painted the hull 2 years ago and are only sporting a couple of minor scratches, so we're not doing too bad.

But, it's still an entirely different kind of boat handling than a conventional setup, that's for sure. You have to get it right the first time, and you have to come in pretty fast. All of this is fine with me but we have had one or two folks run away from the boat in fear when we do one of our standard 'Captain Ron' landings.

Any way you slice it, if there's no rudder behind the prop, you're losing maneuverability. It's not impossible to manage, but it's certainly different, and less forgiving of a miscalculation when docking.

Just the fact that the damn boat goes straight, regardless of how the wheel's turned, in either forward or reverse until it's got some decent way on complicates things, particularly if you've got to make any adjustments to an approach. Sure, you can play with the prop walk, but it's still just not the same as having a rudder in the wash.

[SV Windrush II]

Twin engines, twin props, twin rudders, problem solved!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by TJ D

We've got a 2 bladed max-prop.

I'm probably overstating the difficulties, we painted the hull 2 years ago and are only sporting a couple of minor scratches, so we're not doing too bad.

But, it's still an entirely different kind of boat handling than a conventional setup, that's for sure. You have to get it right the first time, and you have to come in pretty fast. All of this is fine with me but we have had one or two folks run away from the boat in fear when we do one of our standard 'Captain Ron' landings.

Any way you slice it, if there's no rudder behind the prop, you're losing maneuverability. It's not impossible to manage, but it's certainly different, and less forgiving of a miscalculation when docking.

Just the fact that the damn boat goes straight, regardless of how the wheel's turned, in either forward or reverse until it's got some decent way on complicates things, particularly if you've got to make any adjustments to an approach. Sure, you can play with the prop walk, but it's still just not the same as having a rudder in the wash.

No, I fully understand what they're like to drive. Which is why I inquired about the prop, & also used the "throw & catch" metaphor. I even owned a single rudder version for quite a while, where the prop was at the aft end of the keel. So 4m+ to the rudder. Thus a MaxProp makes a huge difference vs. a standard one. Though I'd stick a MaxProp (or similar) on anything, & everything. Love'em!

[TJ D]

Making good boat drivers look like dummies for 20 years... That's our boat's motto!

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Twin engines, twin props, twin rudders, problem solved!

Hey, you might be onto something here!