Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Thanks for the additional thoughts on upwind in sea conditions. As someone who doesn't really ever want to have a boat longer than 36', I appreciate that my options will never be the best choice for upwind work. One of my concerns with these performance cruisers is that they are so light (the Pogo 30 displacement is 2/3 that of my Pearson 28 ) that waves would tend to slap them around and they might lack the inertia to punch through and so get stalled. They may make up for it by having much less wetted surface to push against - polux showed an earlier video of a Pogo seeming to just float above a wave that was starting to break. Of course with coastal cruising, I imagine one will be choosing their upwind days.

I guess the only thing left to do is try one on charter now that the mechanics and theory are cleared thanks to you all!

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Hmm, Pogo just launched their new 36'.

Short, steep chop in shallow water is absolutly going to be the bane of these boats. Big ocean rollers aren't so bad thanks to the hoursepower they can harness (that wide transom and very deep keel add a lot of sail carrying ability).

But if you are the sort of guy who likes to bash into shallow water countercurrent chop.... meh, I will just go somewhere else.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Hmm, Pogo just launched their new 36'.

Short, steep chop in shallow water is absolutly going to be the bane of these boats. Big ocean rollers aren't so bad thanks to the hoursepower they can harness (that wide transom and very deep keel add a lot of sail carrying ability).

But if you are the sort of guy who likes to bash into shallow water countercurrent chop.... meh, I will just go somewhere else.

Well I doubt there are too many folks who like to bash into steep waves, but they aren't that rare especially coastally and in shallower seas far from shore. Well as long as you are not the one who has to sleep in the bow while underway it could be ok. I don't want to sound too negative, they look like fast, light and strong boats.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Hmm, Pogo just launched their new 36'.
.

Heh, for a long time I've thought my next boat was going to be an Iroquois 30 and was pseudo-actively shopping, but now I'm definitely thinking I might stay monohull.

If only Pogo prices weren't all over the place. Perry seems to think they're $150k sail away (http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1...gn-review.html) whereas I think Polux was saying something more around $220k. Guess I'd better call the factory though first there's that Pogo 30 down in the French Caribbean to charter


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Heh, for a long time I've thought my next boat was going to be an Iroquois 30 and was pseudo-actively shopping, but now I'm definitely thinking I might stay monohull.

If only Pogo prices weren't all over the place. Perry seems to think they're $150k sail away (Pogo 36 sailboat design review) whereas I think Polux was saying something more around $220k. Guess I'd better call the factory though first there's that Pogo 30 down in the French Caribbean to charter


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

The $220,000 is for the 12.50 not the 36. Strait from Structures, the Pogo 36 base price is €133,000 w/ the fixed keeel, and aluminum rig. I am guessing Perry's price was based on a lifting keel plus electronics and sails.

[brownoarsman]

Huh, that actually sounds very reasonable. Reading the SA and sailnet threads now on the carbon upgrades too, believe you had some good accounting math in those!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Heh, for a long time I've thought my next boat was going to be an Iroquois 30 and was pseudo-actively shopping, but now I'm definitely thinking I might stay monohull.

If only Pogo prices weren't all over the place. Perry seems to think they're $150k sail away (Pogo 36 sailboat design review) whereas I think Polux was saying something more around $220k. Guess I'd better call the factory though first there's that Pogo 30 down in the French Caribbean to charter
...

Don't charter the Pogo unless you have the money to buy one and the patience to wait 2 years for delivery. if sailing is what you like you will want one after that.

[SV Windrush II]

Just an interesting note, I was looking at Cruising World Best performance cruiser and the ones that made it to the list of contenders are Grand Soleil 43, Dehler 46, Italia Yachts 13.98 and Salona 41. neither RM or Pogo made it on the list.

Then I went to the best value and still nothing about Pogo or RM, instead it was the Hanse 315. And then on to the best midsize cruisers under and still no mention of Pogo or RM, it was the the Dufour 382 and the Dufour 350, came from the same builder. The other pair, the Hanse 315 and the Marlow-Hunter 31.

Its the Passport 545 that was the overall winner.

So with all the rave about Pogo and RM, its a little disappointing that they are not mentioned by the cruising world Judges.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Polux, I've heard you mention fast cruisers as being tradewind/downwind boats, or more versatile at all points of sail, depending on brand. None of these boats seem to have high freeboard that would limit them upwind, and they all appear to have wide beam carried to or almost to the transom, at least to my eye. Could you break the performance cruiser boatyards down into those two categories: tradewind cruisers and the more versatile all points of sail boats? Just trying to understand the market a bit better to think about what to charter and what to (possibly) buy either new or used in a few years. Thanks!...

Yes you can, in what regards the bold part above, but you would have to make another distinction there between solo boats and boats designed to be sailed by a crew.

Solo boats have beamier hulls that heel less and are more stable and allows a solo sailor to go faster since they are most of the time on autopilot that( if it is a top one) can "hold" a racing solo boat to speeds topping 30K

On a narrower racer, that in absolute terms is faster, the autopilot loses control at smaller speeds and to use the autopilot, specially downwind, the boat cannot be driven at full blast. There you have to have a good hand on the steering.

Obviously the solo boat's hulls make much more sense to performance cruising since the boats rarely they are sailed by a competent full crew.

Also and very important is that when we talk about Pogo we are talking about a very "cheap" high performance cruiser.

the other performance cruisers that you will find on the market at more or less similar prices, like Dehler, Elan, Salona or More are not comparable in what regards performance simply because they are much heavier.

To find one of those IRC performance cruisers (as you said, more versatile in all points of sail) you would have to spend much, much more money and that is what makes the Pogo so interesting.

All performance boats are maximized to some type of sailing, boats like the Pogo are maximized to beam reach and downwind sailing simply because the boats that give origin to them are Transat racers and circumnavigation racers where those winds are more common.

IRC derived performance cruisers are derived from racers that make offshore kind of triangular races that will provide about similar distances sailing on each point of sail.

That does not mean that those IRC racers are upwind optimised since what they can gain upwind is more than what they can lose upwind (in time). A really upwind optimized boat will be pretty much a narrow boat with a huge B/D ratio pretty much like wild Oats.

Above stumble pretty much nailed the conditions were a Pogo type of hull will be in disadvantage and those are very much the conditions you will find on the Med or on the Baltic, so on those conditions a Pogo does not make much sense.

On races on the Med, Pogo racers (not the cruising boat but the faster 40class racers, Pogo or not) are nailed by good and fast traditional performance cruisers like the J122.

The Pogo is a boat for the large horizons, for distant shores and for Ocean passages that are normally made on the trade winds.

I sail mostly on the med, so a Pogo does not make much sense to me as a boat to sail there and I have a boat not far from the J122 but if you really want a boat on the same weight class as the Pogo and one that will be probably able to go as fast downwind than you need something like a Nero 400....but you will need a crew to go very fast downwind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqnR9f-u8x0

On other hand no other type of boat will give you the pleasure that this type of boat will provide hand steering upwind in dificult conditions with a rudder feeling to precise that you will be able to put the boat exactly where you want it before the next wave arrives, while minimizing wave drag.

Choose your poison Both are great types of boats.

Just to illustrate what I am saying have a look at this video taken on one of the bigger med races (Middle sea race) were the winner in compensated time has a J122 that was beaten by a Neo 400 in real time for 4 hours on a 4 day and a half elapsed time.

The Neo 400, that is a top cruiser racer, beated the first of the racing Class 40, a Pogo 40S2 by one hour while the J122 was only beaten (in real time) by the fastest of the 40 class racers (by less than 3 hours), beating the second one by more than 2 hours. There were 5 class 40class racing, 3 abandoned the race, as many other boats due to very nasty weather and damages on boats.

On the movie you can see the Neo 400 sailing sail by side by side with a 40class racer and then going away. At the end, the nicest stuff with strong winds where they went over 20k for a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiCbwo9GXc&t=43s

If this was a solo transat I have no doubt that all the Class40 would beat very clearly the Neo 400 and even for a much bigger margin the J122.

I hope this gives some clarification.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Just an interesting note, I was looking at Cruising World Best performance cruiser and the ones that made it to the list of contenders are Grand Soleil 43, Dehler 46, Italia Yachts 13.98 and Salona 41. neither RM or Pogo made it on the list.

Then I went to the best value and still nothing about Pogo or RM, instead it was the Hanse 315. And then on to the best midsize cruisers under and still no mention of Pogo or RM, it was the the Dufour 382 and the Dufour 350, came from the same builder. The other pair, the Hanse 315 and the Marlow-Hunter 31.

Its the Passport 545 that was the overall winner.

So with all the rave about Pogo and RM, its a little disappointing that they are not mentioned by the cruising world Judges.

The American yacht press... well let's just say they seem to be struggling to keep the doors open and their winners tend to have big advertising budgets and brokerages in the US. For the boats that aren't built for the US market it's a hard win.

The European Yacht of the Year is generally considered the better honest review. More boats are included, there are more judges, and the advertising budget of the manufacturers seems to play less of a part.

EYotY for 2016
Family cruiser - RM 970
Performance Cruiser - Pogo 36

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure every Pogo in their current cruising line up has either won or been nominated for the EYOY (I know the 30, 36, and 12.50 have, not sure about the 50).

RM also has a pretty stellar hit list. Though I haven't looked thru their lineup quite so extensively.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Just an interesting note, I was looking at Cruising World Best performance cruiser and the ones that made it to the list of contenders are Grand Soleil 43, Dehler 46, Italia Yachts 13.98 and Salona 41. neither RM or Pogo made it on the list.

Then I went to the best value and still nothing about Pogo or RM, instead it was the Hanse 315. And then on to the best midsize cruisers under and still no mention of Pogo or RM, it was the the Dufour 382 and the Dufour 350, came from the same builder. The other pair, the Hanse 315 and the Marlow-Hunter 31.

Its the Passport 545 that was the overall winner.

So with all the rave about Pogo and RM, its a little disappointing that they are not mentioned by the cruising world Judges.

Best value?? a RM 35 ft is around 155.000 euros....A dufour 36 is around 136.000 euros,,,, 155.000 euros for a plywood boat??? wowowowo

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Not so fast boy, we test sail a pogo with new rigging 2 weeks agoo around Marigot SXM in a breeze,, third pogo we have in our dock in the last 3 years, probably i know more of this boats than you, wana see some pics with me at the bosun chair???

I had already asked you: What Pogo? They make different boats and many diffent sizes, so of what are you talking about?

It is amaizing you had 3 Pogos on your shipyard, being them in relatively small numbers. Probably more racing pogos around than cruising Pogos. That means that the cross the Pond a lot

[barnakiel]

As if the phrase vested interest was not an English invention.

So you also think Oscar winners are best movies in the world?

And Nobel Peace Prize winners have anything to do with peace? Arafat? Obama? Rings a bell?

Wake up people. What you read in (most) media is what the media wants you to read.

Mass production, mass media, mass ignorance.

Cheers,
b.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

I had already asked you: What Pogo? They make different boats and many diffent sizes, so of what are you talking about?

It is amaizing you had 3 Pogos on your shipyard, being them in relatively small numbers. Probably more racing pogos around than cruising Pogos. That means that the cross the Pond a lot

You should try to cast off from the med marina and come to this side of the pond in Martinique there is few for chárter, every season here in SXM there is a bunch of pogos docked in the outside of the harbour marina, the first Pogo i see in my life will be in 2010 when i delivery a couple of Lagoons for a french guy named Reguis Guillemot who sail a Route du rhum in a pogo 40s , as you see, Pogos are very popular here in the caribbean ... me excited when i see a pogo? well no, just another day in the office....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Just an interesting note, I was looking at Cruising World Best performance cruiser and the ones that made it to the list of contenders are Grand Soleil 43, Dehler 46, Italia Yachts 13.98 and Salona 41. neither RM or Pogo made it on the list.

Then I went to the best value and still nothing about Pogo or RM, instead it was the Hanse 315. And then on to the best midsize cruisers under and still no mention of Pogo or RM, it was the the Dufour 382 and the Dufour 350, came from the same builder. The other pair, the Hanse 315 and the Marlow-Hunter 31.

Its the Passport 545 that was the overall winner.

So with all the rave about Pogo and RM, its a little disappointing that they are not mentioned by the cruising world Judges.

Let's see if I can provide you with a better insight about this:

The first point is that European magazines are far more objective than american sail ones. Not only the European ones test much more boats (simply because there are much more boats on the market here) but also because US magazines live much more on publicity than European ones. Go to Zinio.com and compare, on line, the price of the American magazines with European ones. The European ones are 3 or 4 times more expensive for the simple reason that are less paid by publicity.

But this is the less important factor, the most important factor, regarding the choice of boats, for cruising world magazine boat of the year regards the boats that appeared that year and are available on the American market, that are just a very tiny proportion of the boats that are available and new on the European Market that year.

Neither the Pogo neither the RM are available on the US market so they cannot be tested or be nominated by an American magazine.

Also sometimes we see an "old" european boat, that are on the European market for 4 or 5 years winning American magazine's boat of the year, like it was the case with the Salona 44.

Finally there is a big difference between an American magazine boat of the year and the European Yacht of the year, not only due to the small number of brands on the American market but also because there are several boat of the year on the US according to several American magazines and a single one on Europe.

In Europe, that has much more sail magazines than the US, the European boat of the year, on the several categories, is only one, chosen by the test sailors of the main sailing magazines of 11 different countries. All test sails are done at the same time in several meetings, with them changing opinions and sailing/inspecting all the boats. It is therefore a much more significant choice and one less likely to be affected by magazine publicity.

These sailors, because have access to a much bigger market, test not only much more boats each year as many different types of boats, compared with American boat testers, many of the boats are not available on the US and their overall knowledge of what the market has to offer on a global perspective is much bigger.

If you go to my blog, regarding the Pogo and the RM (in two different posts) it is quoted individually what each sail tester, from a different magazine and a different country, said about the boats that won. You will see that they say not very different things regarding their reason for a choice.

Regarding the Passport 545, well, it is an American boat isn't it? even if made in Taiwan. One of the good things about those testers being from eleven different countries is that they make impossible biased opinions regarding to chose a boat from their own country. Only 1 in 11 to do that

Regarding the Passport 545 I can only say that I don't know the quality of built, that they say it is very good, but I don't need to see or sail the boat to know that in what regards design and state of the art for that market sector, it is just an outdated design, a boat that could have been easily designed 20 years ago, or more.


But I am a bit confused, that boat had already won the 2012 sail magazine boat of the year, it is not a new boat. Or it is just a new version with the same old hull? if so it is rather odd. That would never happen on the European boat of the year, I mean an old hull with a remake winning again after having won 5 years before? That does not make sense.
Flagship: Best Boat 2012 Passport Vista 545 CC - Sail Magazine

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Best value?? a RM 35 ft is around 155.000 euros....A dufour 36 is around 136.000 euros,,,, 155.000 euros for a plywood boat??? wowowowo

Yes, they are all stupid so stupid that they make a long waiting list (18 month) to buy a more expensive one when they could have a cheaper one with better quality right away