Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

[Stumble]

The J-112 has a base price of $275,000usd it obviously has a different design aesthetic inside, but for $50k less I would much rather have the Pogo's 12.50.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

This could be what you get from a small Yard when the owners of a RM 1050 have structural problems and the yard refuse to take any warranty..

In french and traslated...

Depuis deux mois et demi, nous échangeons des mails avec le chantier Fora Marine constructeur du bateau concernant les réparations du décollement du pont des cloisons sous-jacentes au niveau du rail d'écoute de GV ainsi que de celui des lattes teck du tableau arrière basculant. Et rien de probant à ce jour. Nous sommes en Turquie où des entreprises compétentes ont été contactées, ont devisé et ont essuyé un refus pour leur prix trop élevé (?). A priori, ça sent la mauvaise volonté flagrante du chantier selon la technique bien connue de faire traîner pour pousser le client à l'abandon. A force de correspondre, il s'avère qu'au moins un autre RM du même type a, entre autres, les mêmes problèmes. Combien d'autres encore ? Comment faire pour contraindre le chantier à respecter ses engagements contractuels et à faire, ou faire faire, ces réparations (vices de fabrication) dans des délais raisonnables ?

English....

For the past two and a half months we have been exchanging emails with the Fora Marine yard builder of the ship concerning the repairs of the decking of the underlying bulkheads at the GV track and the teak slats of the tilting transom . And nothing convincing to date. We are in Turkey where competent companies have been contacted, have quoted and have been refused for their price too high (?). A priori, it feels the blatant will of the site according to the well-known technique of dragging to push the customer to abandon. By dint of matching, it turns out that at least one other RM of the same type has, among other things, the same problems. How many more? How to compel the site to respec
t its contractual commitments and to make, or have done, these repairs (manufacturing defects) in a reasonable timeframe?

See why i ask for what kind of warranty in a Plywood boat...
http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&...IncrKnDS9ZXdLA

You don't know nothing about that story, if the boat was still under warranty?, what happened? or if the shipyard addressed the problem or not.

That is a thread from 2008 that ends in 2008. If the subject would not be addressed don't you think the poster would not have continued to post about it?

You should not talk about what you don't know. Everybody that now RM know that they are very reliable boats with very little issues and that their owners are a proud group that manages to have all the boats on a club/forum.

Obviously you don't know nothing about these boats or RM so you should not be raising unfounded suspicions about the shipyard.

Any brand has from time to time problems with a boat that was badly built. It happens with all, even the most prestigious brands.

Here you have their association and their forum:
http://rm-asso.org/index.php
And they keep track of all RM since the vast majority of owners belong to the association:
http://rm-asso.org/rm.php

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

You don't know nothing about that story, if the boat was still under warranty?, what happened? or if the shipyard addressed the problem or not.

That is a thread from 2008 that ends in 2008. If the subject would not be addressed don't you think the poster would not have continued to post about it?

You should not talk about what you don't know. Everybody that now RM know that they are very reliable boats with very little issues and that their owners are a proud group that manages to have all the boats on a club/forum.

Obviously you don't know nothing about these boats or RM so you should not be raising unfounded suspicions about the shipyard.

Any brand has from time to time problems with a boat that was badly built. It happens with all, even the most prestigious brands.

Here you have their association and their forum:
Voiliers RM Association http://rm-asso.org/
And they keep track of all RM since the vast majority of owners belong to the association:
Les RM et Randonneurs

The boat is under warranty as the poster post the same history in a diferent fórum , as well other french owners post claims about structural isues in a Rm fórum , mostly in the deck jib track área, i count 5 mad guys claiming that they dont get any answer or response from the yard, you should understand that those ply boats are expensive and when i ask you if you know the warranty what i get is a vague answer from you like maybe or 2 years something really ridiculous , 2 years is not what you can expect from a reputable yard about hull and deck warranty,,, hell even i can have a year in a new laptop.... Like you say most of this boats are sold to french customers and any boat is subject to defects or problems thats why the warranty exist..

You should leave the marina gate and take a walk in real life because surfing sailing magazines and the internet claiming that this boats could be a great deal when maybe they are not, each in their own, i know for experience that Ply epoxy boats can last a lot, even outplay a GRP boat, in fact here in the boatyard they built 2 multis in Ply 17 years agoo and they are still strong, the fact that they are terrible expensive for the whole concept make me suspect that spend this kind of cash for a ply boat , a material mostly used in homeboatbuilding or amateurs is not a good deal, Wood rot sooner or later , thats something we learn with ply, balsa, or strip planking... So far i never be interested in a Plywood boat in fact in any wooden boat , like you say this could be a old really old material used this days, contemporary whatever... in a new design, you should back to your sources and see if they really support the product and the fact we dont hear to much about Rm dont mean nothing , small club ...

Can say they are light and fast and even attractive but the Price kill the dream , at least for me, i dont see the reason for those prices unless Ply stock skyrocket in the last 10 years,,, this boats are feed by trolls, no offense Paolo... Oh by the way i dont want to hijack the topic , just stay on topic.

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by Polux

8k (maybe a bit more) with 12k speed is what my boat makes and it is a 41ftboat, not a 55ft boat.

The interior seems to be of good quality but you will not find that conservative style on european boats, even very expensive ones. It is all a question of taste but what is not a question of taste is the weight of the solid wood cabinets and the much bigger chances of changing shape due to humidity.

But that is not the problem I see on that boat, in what regards having won a boat of the year award. The interior can be conservative but the interior is not a functional part of the boat in what regards sailing (if we discount the extra weight) but the outdated hull and keel are and it is just odd seing an outdated boat winning a prize that should refer to what is best produced on that year. I don't understand how can that apply to a boat that has at least a 20 year outdated hull and keel design.

Our decision will not be based solely on sailing ability, as my wife is not concerned with that aspect so much as the interior layout. Quite frankly she would never live in a Pogo or the likes. As for me I can be more open minded about style, but still needs to have a "Yacht" or nautical feel to it, and to me the Pogo and RM style just looks like a modified piece of molded plastic. Not something I would want to bring my friends over for a romantic evening dinner or met with my business partners, but I know its all personal preference

Actually Speaking of your boat Polux, I like the Comet line and the late models are inline with what we are looking for. What can you say about the Comet 52RS? I think it is a good compromise of interior accommodation and performance and something I can sell the wife on

Comet Raised Saloon 52 RS - Comar Yachts

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

....
Actually Speaking of your boat Polux, I like the Comet line and the late models are inline with what we are looking for. What can you say about the Comet 52RS? I think it is a good compromise of interior accommodation and performance and something I can sell the wife on

Comet Raised Saloon 52 RS - Comar Yachts

That is the less sportive line. I don't like to talk about boats of the brand I own one but the general consensus is that they are well built, particularly in what regards structure.

But maybe this helps: Once I was rammed by a 55T wooden motorboat while at anchor, with the engine full blast astern (the boat had a problem and the commands blocked). It hit me by the middle with a huge metal swim platform. My wife that was inside flyed from on side of the boat to the other, the British skipper that was on the spot ahead anchored come for the rescue because he was sure the boat had been holled (he had an old traditional heavy boat).

In the end only superficial damage on the gelcoat. The boat was analyzed to see if there was any delamination on the core but now, no problem except a new gelcoat paint on that side.

Not many built and they were expensive. If you can find one it eventually can be a good buy, if you like the boat. For a main market cruiser it is a pretty fast one too.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

The boat is under warranty as the poster post the same history in a diferent fórum , as well other french owners post claims about structural isues in a Rm fórum , mostly in the deck jib track área, i count 5 mad guys claiming that they dont get any answer or response from the yard, you should understand that those ply boats are expensive and when i ask you if you know the warranty what i get is a vague answer from you like maybe or 2 years something really ridiculous , 2 years is not what you can expect from a reputable yard about hull and deck warranty,,, hell even i can have a year in a new laptop.... Like you say most of this boats are sold to french customers and any boat is subject to defects or problems thats why the warranty exist..

You should leave the marina gate and take a walk in real life because surfing sailing magazines and the internet claiming that this boats could be a great deal when maybe they are not, each in their own, i know for experience that Ply epoxy boats can last a lot, even outplay a GRP boat, in fact here in the boatyard they built 2 multis in Ply 17 years agoo and they are still strong, the fact that they are terrible expensive for the whole concept make me suspect that spend this kind of cash for a ply boat , a material mostly used in homeboatbuilding or amateurs is not a good deal, Wood rot sooner or later , thats something we learn with ply, balsa, or strip planking... So far i never be interested in a Plywood boat in fact in any wooden boat , like you say this could be a old really old material used this days, contemporary whatever... in a new design, you should back to your sources and see if they really support the product and the fact we dont hear to much about Rm dont mean nothing , small club ...

Can say they are light and fast and even attractive but the Price kill the dream , at least for me, i dont see the reason for those prices unless Ply stock skyrocket in the last 10 years,,, this boats are feed by trolls, no offense Paolo... Oh by the way i dont want to hijack the topic , just stay on topic.

That's pretty incredible. You are talking about what you don't know while I know well RM, visited the shipyard, sailed in one, have friends that own them, I know what French sail forums and French sailors say about them, even what some other French shipyard says about them and I am the one that needs to "... leave the marina gate and take a walk in real life because surfing sailing magazines and the internet claiming that this boats could be a great deal when maybe they are not, each in their own":bigg rin:

[neilpride]

Paolo, im just pointing that the Ply deal is not worth the money, i have a bunch of pics of this Rm,s with lots of flaws and isues, like the one pointing at the deck jib track separating and cracking the joint in a 2013 Rm after a atlantic croosing, or the compresión post making a 1,5 mm gap crack at the partitions ,, im not going to flame anymore the builder , im just pointing where is the warranty since some of this boats repairs are payed by the owners and the yard just walk away... Also what about resale value outside of the EU, since 99% of this boats are sold to french sailors, you should know that the Word Plywood scare a lot of folks, like ferro or Steel..

Still i see the Price of this boats horrible expensive, the construction to me dont inspire any confidence, RM claim that the CP construction is stronger than aluminium, i dont know how one of this boats can copy with rocks, groundings, or collisions, or even with bad weather... 2 years warranty is a joke , for the same Price you can buy a Bene or Bavaria in GRP and with a warranty,, Small yard mean small support,, honestly whats the deal here???

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Paolo, im just pointing that the Ply deal is not worth the money, i have a bunch of pics of this Rm,s with lots of flaws and isues, like the one pointing at the deck jib track separating and cracking the joint in a 2013 Rm after a atlantic croosing, or the compresión post making a 1,5 mm gap crack at the partitions ,, im not going to flame anymore the builder , im just pointing where is the warranty since some of this boats repairs are payed by the owners and the yard just walk away... Also what about resale value outside of the EU, since 99% of this boats are sold to french sailors, you should know that the Word Plywood scare a lot of folks, like ferro or Steel..

Still i see the Price of this boats horrible expensive, the construction to me dont inspire any confidence, RM claim that the CP construction is stronger than aluminium, i dont know how one of this boats can copy with rocks, groundings, or collisions, or even with bad weather... 2 years warranty is a joke , for the same Price you can buy a Bene or Bavaria in GRP and with a warranty,, Small yard mean small support,, honestly whats the deal here???

Yes, You are smart, even if you don't know the boat, all others that know them very well, many having had a RM before, and are waiting for a year and a half for getting their hands on a new one, are dumb

The photo you posted is from this blog:
https://sailsupandgo.wordpress.com/2...-150-nm-later/

This is the boat from that blog (Cirrus):


It is not a RM or at least not a Fora marine RM, the boats I am talking about and it looks an old boat. It is very confusing, in fact they talk about having a problem that needed a 6 hour repair, not a big deal.

The problem I know with a RM was with a 1050 that is owned by one of the most famous sailing schools in the world, "le Glenans", a boat used extensively for offshore instruction in hard conditions with several Transats.

Some RM 1050 had not the best design on that area and the shipyard changed the design on the next version of the boat, the 1060 (the actual boat is the 1070) but even the one that pointed that problem (on the Glenan's boat) on a French Forums refer the great reputation the RM has. That poster has a similar boat and loves RM sailboats:

"These worries are not insurmountable.
But I do not accept to be criticized because I highlight a problem on a boat that has an excellent reputation.
ALL boats have a problem, no matter how benign.
My sun shine also has an excellent reputation and it is not without problems. Reporting them does not detract from the general quality of the boat.... On the ... RM 10.60, the shipyard returned to the architect's fundamentals: a "keel-pedestal-mast block", where the efforts of one are taken up by the weight of the other. Perfect, they stop their mistake. But the owners and future owners of RM 10.50 should know that this point is to be watched, and this forum serves that.

Moreover, although RMs are surely excellent travel boats...I love the RM 10.50, I love the hulls to chine and plywood in particular, but this forum is there to be objective."


You should inform yourself about the opinion the ones that know the boat and sail it, or own it, have about it instead of talking about what you don't know.

You will get some information about that on this tread (translated) "What is your opinion about the RM" on one of the biggest sail forums:

https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/forums/f...ez-vous-des-rm

Le Glenans as I said is one of the best and more famous sailing schools and their instructors have a great knowledge not only about sailing but about the boats they buy for the school, regarding safety, strength and sailing quality and the boat they chose for teaching long range cruising are RM, now the RM 10.60. They say about the boat:

"The RM 1060 is a new fast cruising boat designed for long distances with maximum comfort and safety. It has a very bright interior with panoramic window panels, a modern U-shaped galley and a generous chart table. The large sail area and hull design enables it to reach very high speeds providing exhilarating cruising."
http://www.glenans.asso.fr/en/practi...ing-boats.html

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, You are smart, even if you don't know the boat, all others that know them very well, many having had a RM before, and are waiting for a year and a half for getting their hands on a new one, are dumb

The photo you posted is from this blog:
https://sailsupandgo.wordpress.com/2...-150-nm-later/

This is the boat from that blog (Cirrus):


It is not a RM or at least not a Fora marine RM, the boats I am talking about and it looks an old boat. It is very confusing, in fact they talk about having a problem that needed a 6 hour repair, not a big deal.

The problem I know with a RM was with a 1050 that is owned by one of the most famous sailing schools in the world, "le Glenans", a boat used extensively for offshore instruction in hard conditions with several Transats.

Some RM 1050 had not the best design on that area and the shipyard changed the design on the next version of the boat, the 1060 (the actual boat is the 1070) but even the ones that pointed that problem on French Forums refer the great reputation the boat has and the poster that pointed has a similar boat:

"These worries are not insurmountable.
But I do not accept to be criticized because I highlight a problem on a boat that has an excellent reputation.
ALL boats have a problem, no matter how benign.
My sun shine also has an excellent reputation and it is not without problems. Reporting them does not detract from the general quality of the boat.... On the ... RM 10.60, the shipyard returned to the architect's fundamentals: a "keel-pedestal-mast block", where the efforts of one are taken up by the weight of the other. Perfect, they stop their mistake. But the owners and future owners of RM 10.50 should know that this point is to be watched, and this forum serves that.

Moreover, although RMs are surely excellent travel boats...I love the RM 10.50, I love the hulls to chine and plywood in particular, but this forum is there to be objective."


You should inform yourself about the opinion the ones that know the boat and sail it, or own it, have about it instead of talking about what you don't know.

You will get some information about that on this tread (translated) "What is your opinion about the RM" on one of the biggest sail forums:

https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/forums/f...ez-vous-des-rm

Its a sailblog, this one is aluminium,, are you ever see a aluminium boat with FG ply bulkheads and even FG below deck?

From the sailblog where i found the history...

Sorry if I will describe the failures a bit “technically” but I will do my best. Both failures seem to be due to an error of design rather than misuse of the boat. Indeed the second RM presented signs of the two failures coming too. The deck coming loose from the deck is probably due to insufficient bonding area between deck and bulkhead and a concentration point around a cut in the bulkhead (the bulkhead was probably cut after being assembled when the workers realised that it was in the way of a bolt of the mainsail track…). The deck is made in 25 mm PVC foam sandwich, with an upper fiber layer rather thick (4 mm) but a bottom layer very thin (1 mm). Around the rudder bearing the deck layup wasn’t altered to single skin or a tougher core than the foam. Therefore when the bearing is fixed tight by its six bolts, the lower flange crushes into the sandwich. After a while the foam crushes more and the bearing come loose

So? You can keep trying twisting facts and messing with my posts, now Glenans and i dont know whats next...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

... What can you say about the Comet 52RS? I think it is a good compromise of interior accommodation and performance and something I can sell the wife on

Comet Raised Saloon 52 RS - Comar Yachts

I remember about this test on a Comet 62RS, by Toby Hodges, that is a good sail tester with a large experience. He probably will give you a less biased opinion about the Comets from the RS line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlSz1l9caOI

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Its a sailblog, this one is aluminium,, are you ever see a aluminium boat with FG ply bulkheads and even FG below deck?

From the sailblog where i found the history...

"Sorry if I will describe the failures a bit “technically” but I will do my best. Both failures seem to be due to an error of design rather than misuse of the boat. Indeed the second RM presented signs of the two failures coming too. The deck coming loose from the deck is probably due to insufficient bonding area between deck and bulkhead and a concentration point around a cut in the bulkhead (the bulkhead was probably cut after being assembled when the workers realised that it was in the way of a bolt of the mainsail track…). The deck is made in 25 mm PVC foam sandwich, with an upper fiber layer rather thick (4 mm) but a bottom layer very thin (1 mm). Around the rudder bearing the deck layup wasn’t altered to single skin or a tougher core than the foam. Therefore when the bearing is fixed tight by its six bolts, the lower flange crushes into the sandwich. After a while the foam crushes more and the bearing come loose"

So? You can keep trying twisting facts and messing with my posts, now Glenans and i dont know whats next...

It is you that don't know what you are talking about. The picture you posted come from that blog from an aluminium boat (I posted a link) as well as the text you quoted and yes even if you don't know, they are talking about the RM 1050 from the sailing school "Le Glenans" that had a problem on an Atlantic crossing, the same boat that French poster I quoted is talking about.

The sailblog were you find that story (that you don't link) is the one I referred, the one from the aluminium boat Cirrus, this one:
https://sailsupandgo.wordpress.com/2...-150-nm-later/

Twisting the facts and messing with your posts? You mean regarding quotes that you don't provide a link?

I am providing the links you don't post, regarding what you quote.

I am just clarifying your post and explaining to you that they are not referring to Cirrus (the blog boat), an aluminium boat, but to the RM 10.50 from the sailing school Le Glenans, even if nothing on that link makes evident of what boat they are talking about. I know that it was that boat that had that problem and even posted the post that first revealed that on a French public forum, some years ago, a Forum of which I am a member.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

It is you that don't know what you are talking about. The picture you posted come from that blog from an aluminium boat (I posted a link) as well as the text you quoted and yes even if you don't know, they are talking about the RM 1050 from the sailing school "Le Glenans" that had a problem on an Atlantic crossing, the same boat that French poster I quoted is talking about.

The sailblog were you find that story (that you don't link) is the one I referred, the one from the aluminium boat Cirrus, this one:
https://sailsupandgo.wordpress.com/2...-150-nm-later/

Twisting the facts and messing with your posts? You mean regarding quotes that you don't provide a link?

I am providing the links you don't post, regarding what you quote.

I am just clarifying your post and explaining to you that they are not referring to Cirrus (the blog boat), an aluminium boat, but to the RM 10.50 from the sailing school Le Glenans, even if nothing on that link makes evident of what boat they are talking about. I know that it was that boat that had that problem and even posted the post that first revealed that on a French public forum, some years ago, a Forum of which I am a member.

Do you understand English?? Where you from? thats exactly what im trying to explain to you in my previous post, that Cirrus is not the boat in question,, but thank you again to make it clear, a Rm From the Glenans ,,,,Jesús!!!!

[robert sailor]

Damned if I didn't spot a RM 1050 with a French couple anchored right beside us today in Honduras.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Damned if I didn't spot a RM 1050 with a French couple anchored right beside us today in Honduras.

Maybe you can ask them what they think of their boat and about RM in general?

[robert sailor]

Their English wasn't great when I asked where their hook was so we will see. They thought because I'm Canadian that I automatically spoke French. It has a tiller and is a bit funky looking, my first thought was that it was a homemade metal boat because of the full length chines. It has a raised saloon with large side ports. It's not a bad looking boat but it's a look that you'd have to learn to love.