Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

[Liam Wald]

My Previous boat was a 1956 Mason 33 made of mahogany on oak. I spent 80% of my time working on it and 20% of my time sailing it.
My current boat is a 2003 Beneteau Oceanis 331. I spend 80% of my time sailing it and 20% of my time working on it.

[tuffr2]

The video shows the Pogo 1250 sailing realtivly flat at that 22kt speed. Impressive indeed. Agree, looks like little stress at that speed.

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

While the video of the go fast above is really impressive, I don't see it as practical for OP's plans.

Doesn't seem very comfortable for long passages

No Shade

Weight Limits if cargo includes liveaboard cruising and diving

Because of the many interactive strong currents thru the Philippine Islands, when the monsoon blows, the seas can get pretty square .

If not a multi, for charter consider something solid and sea kindly that let's them have fun or just relax.

Something tough and comfortable like this.Attachment 138583Attachment 138584Attachment 138585

Good thoughts, at the end of the day, I lean towards this concept.

[TheThunderbird]

America is homeland to center-board sloops, cutters, schooners in their 60's

I'd take a yawl, or cutter, of NO BRAND, but strong built, from the 80s, GRP of course. A custom edition from a builder of reputation.

But an old boat can work for daily getaways only, not modern charters, un less it is a historical boat (When and If, Whitehack, ...)

[SV Windrush II]

Found this one that is getting pretty close to what I am looking for. What do you guys think?
Has lifting keel so minimum draft is 6'3"

1985 Pedrick Cutter 61 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

[ka4wja]

Windrush,
Well, I really like Pelagic's answer!!!
He summed things up very nicely...

And, I'm assuming you're asking these things directly because you really want to know??
So, with that in mind, here are some direct answers...

1) First off...there's a lot more to passage making than speed....and many tend to keep the boat's speed under control (especially when running downwind) for both comfort and longevity of the boat's systems (running rigging, sails, etc.) as well as some using better sail trim/management to make steering easier (allowing less electrical usage from an autopilot, and/or easier for hand steering)...
So, looking at boat types to gain a speed advantage can be a red herring....
Of course there's nothing wrong with performance cruisers offshore (that is what I sail!!), just wanted to make it clear that speed isn't always the Godsend that some might think...



2) Secondly, to your specific question...
No!

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Where is the happy medium of performance and sailing to weather, comfort, spacious interior, but not a slug either? Can a performance cruiser of 60' easily sail at 12-14 knots in good conditions?

No, sailing to windward, you're not going to get any 60' performance cruiser to sail 12 - 14 kts!
Even a 60' or 64' Sundeer (except for some "one-offs", the only real "60' performance cruisers" produced), with their 60' and 64' waterline lengths, have hull speeds of about 10 and a half kts....
And, downwind I have heard of them making 260+ mile days (~ 11 kts average), and they are nicely designed for long-range offshore sailing and living on-board in remote locales...

But, offshore, in general, most boats in the range you're referring to of 50' - 60', will average 200 - 225 nm / day....if sailed heartily, in good wind...

{I understand it's a new modern model, but I've not seen a Swan 54...although I did sail a new Swan 57 many, many years ago in the Med, what a sweet boat that was....)


3) I have heard of someone single handing a Sundeer offshore, but never seen it....
And, I don't think many of these boats you mention would be designed / set-up to do that, at least not easily...
but...
But, as is said.... "All it takes is money", and you can do just about anything....



4) As for the practicality of "performance cruisers" offshore....well, that an easy answer...
Yes, some sail and perform very well....but...
But, there are vast differences in design that I think you may be over looking....
It's not about the length/size of the boat, but rather how it's designed.....the hull shape / underbody, the keel, the rudder, the center of gravity / moment of inertia, rig design, center of effort, etc. etc...
These (and others) are all design factors to consider....(not to mention galley design, systems access, etc. etc. etc... )

If you look at this photo, you'll see a modern, fin (fin/wing) keeled, spade ruddered, 47' sloop, that sails extremely well offshore (upwind and downwind) in heavy of light conditions, is easy to maneuver, etc...and does not pound along like some other "modern" designs....look at the nice curved hull and entry, forefoot, no flat-sled here...


Nothing wrong with modern designs, but...

But, as for "modern sleds" offshore???
I don't have personal experience with them...but from what I hear / read, they're not great offshore boats, especially to windward....



5) And, finally, some things I'm confused about...
You write you want to "do some chartering" (which means cabins/space for guests, etc.) but also want a fast performance cruiser to go to windward, single-handed as well???
Those are two rather opposite design criteria....(probably doable, but again $$$$)

And, buying/converting a maxi (or any specialty racer) into a cruising boat is large project, but you also want to do chartering, with all that entails in design / refit???
I'd not recommend that approach, at all....

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

The reason why I want to open this discussion is because this next year we want to get into a larger boat that we can do some chartering, but also good performance. My wife does not like to sail with me offshore because even in 10 knot winds she gets scared. So keep in mind I would like to at least single-hand sail at times when I cannot find a crew.


......when I upsize to a larger boat, I would like it to be much better going to windward, but kind of leery of the modern sleds with wide sterns, and dual rudders to keep the helm in control.

Where is the happy medium of performance and sailing to weather, comfort, spacious interior, but not a slug either? Can a performance cruiser of 60' easily sail at 12-14 knots in good conditions?

So far I have been looking at 1980s Swan 54, French built Atlantic 60, Tayana 55, etc.

Or should I go crazy and get an old Maxi and convert it to a cruiser? considering all the cost of refitting a racer to a cruiser and is sailing a racing sled as a cruiser a bad Idea?

Not sure if I helped....and as I reread this before submitting, I wonder if I should...
But, here 'ya go..


fair winds...

John

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Windrush,
Well, I really like Pelagic's answer!!!
He summed things up very nicely...

And, I'm assuming you're asking these things directly because you really want to know??
So, with that in mind, here are some direct answers...

1) First off...there's a lot more to passage making than speed....and many tend to keep the boat's speed under control (especially when running downwind) for both comfort and longevity of the boat's systems (running rigging, sails, etc.) as well as some using better sail trim/management to make steering easier (allowing less electrical usage from an autopilot, and/or easier for hand steering)...
So, looking at boat types to gain a speed advantage can be a red herring....
Of course there's nothing wrong with performance cruisers offshore (that is what I sail!!), just wanted to make it clear that speed isn't always the Godsend that some might think...



2) Secondly, to your specific question...
No!
No, sailing to windward, you're not going to get any 60' performance cruiser to sail 12 - 14 kts!
Even a 60' or 64' Sundeer (except for some "one-offs", the only real "60' performance cruisers" produced), with their 60' and 64' waterline lengths, have hull speeds of about 10 and a half kts....
And, downwind I have heard of them making 260+ mile days (~ 11 kts average), and they are nicely designed for long-range offshore sailing and living on-board in remote locales...

But, offshore, in general, most boats in the range you're referring to of 50' - 60', will average 200 - 225 nm / day....if sailed heartily, in good wind...

{I understand it's a new modern model, but I've not seen a Swan 54...although I did sail a new Swan 57 many, many years ago in the Med, what a sweet boat that was....)


3) I have heard of someone single handing a Sundeer offshore, but never seen it....
And, I don't think many of these boats you mention would be designed / set-up to do that, at least not easily...
but...
But, as is said.... "All it takes is money", and you can do just about anything....



4) As for the practicality of "performance cruisers" offshore....well, that an easy answer...
Yes, some sail and perform very well....but...
But, there are vast differences in design that I think you may be over looking....
It's not about the length/size of the boat, but rather how it's designed.....the hull shape / underbody, the keel, the rudder, the center of gravity / moment of inertia, rig design, center of effort, etc. etc...
These (and others) are all design factors to consider....(not to mention galley design, systems access, etc. etc. etc... )

If you look at this photo, you'll see a modern, fin (fin/wing) keeled, spade ruddered, 47' sloop, that sails extremely well offshore (upwind and downwind) in heavy of light conditions, is easy to maneuver, etc...and does not pound along like some other "modern" designs....look at the nice curved hull and entry, forefoot, no flat-sled here...


Nothing wrong with modern designs, but...

But, as for "modern sleds" offshore???
I don't have personal experience with them...but from what I hear / read, they're not great offshore boats, especially to windward....



5) And, finally, some things I'm confused about...
You write you want to "do some chartering" (which means cabins/space for guests, etc.) but also want a fast performance cruiser to go to windward, single-handed as well???
Those are two rather opposite design criteria....(probably doable, but again $$$$)

And, buying/converting a maxi (or any specialty racer) into a cruising boat is large project, but you also want to do chartering, with all that entails in design / refit???
I'd not recommend that approach, at all....


Not sure if I helped....and as I reread this before submitting, I wonder if I should...
But, here 'ya go..


fair winds...

John

Thanks John, a lot of good info here and it is helping me make the right decision. I really like the boat in your picture and looking at a few that match that design. Yes I am sure some things I want are not practical or probably impossible, we can all wish right? that why I like to ask fellow cruisers so I can be brought back to reality hahaha.

Rob

[ka4wja]

Rob,
Thanks, I really like her, too!
She's a Catalina 470.
I bought her in 2004, and have done a few Atlantic crossings on her, etc...a sweet, and calm ride, even upwind in a full gale!

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

I really like the boat in your picture and looking at a few that match that design. Yes I am sure some things I want are not practical or probably impossible, we can all wish right? that why I like to ask fellow cruisers so I can be brought back to reality hahaha.

If you're interested in seeing some videos of my more recent Atlantic crossings on her, have a look here...

Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY


I've sailed offshore on heavy full-keeled boats, modified-fin-keeled w/ sked-hung rudder (my first Atlantic crossing), and fin-keeled with spade-rudder....as well as my current fin/wing-keel...
And, my current is my favorite!!




And, that whole "Desires versus reality" thing?
Yeah, that's always an issue in life, isn't it?

Fair winds..

John

[Souzag818]

I agree with Pelagics answer. Fast isn't always the most comfortable, and my guess is the wife wouldn't like this at all. Comfort is more to my liking-with some speed. Reminds me of a Labor day race from Lahaina to Honolulu that I did decades ago. We were on a friends New Zealand made 35' boat that he lived aboard and it was loaded down with all the stuff live aboards have. It still was a good 7-8 knot upwind boat. As we were sailing along going 12 knots downwind with a spinnaker and main up, an ultra light about the same size came smoking up on us. The crew on board was wet, yelling and screaming at us as they passed by, but the smiles on their faces soon disappeared as we held up the pints of Haagen Das we were eating! Yea, that was a pretty good day...

[ka4wja]

My apologies for drifting off topic....but, I couldn't resist...

Originally Posted by Souzag818

....The crew on board was wet, yelling and screaming at us as they passed by, but the smiles on their faces soon disappeared as we held up the pints of Haagen Das we were eating! Yea, that was a pretty good day...

I didn't have anyone pass me, but enjoyed a pint of Haagen Das (with an Oreo), 10 days out-of S. Florida, in the middle of the Atlantic, halfway to the Azores....in the heat of July (thanks to my added frig/freezer insulation it was still frozen!), while sailing along at 7kts+...and I saved the 2nd pint (and some Black Angus steaks) to celebrate in Gibraltar!!

Just piling onto the fact that there's more to life offshore, than speed...

Fair winds..

John

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

The reason why I want to open this discussion is because this next year we want to get into a larger boat that we can do some chartering, but also good performance. ....
My mariner 40 has been a great boat for me and have sailed alone across the pacific through dead calm to 40 knot winds.
Being an old William Garden full keel design, it is a very forgiving sailor but even at 25 knot winds on a broad reach, I m lucky to get 7.5 knots out of it, of course that's not including surfing speeds.
Also my main issue with it is windward sailing which it does not like.

With that said, when I upsize to a larger boat, I would like it to be much better going to windward, but kind of leery of the modern sleds with wide sterns, and dual rudders to keep the helm in control.

Where is the happy medium of performance and sailing to weather, comfort, spacious interior, but not a slug either? Can a performance cruiser of 60' easily sail at 12-14 knots in good conditions?

So far I have been looking at 1980s Swan 54, French built Atlantic 60, Tayana 55, etc.

Or should I go crazy and get an old Maxi and convert it to a cruiser? considering all the cost of refitting a racer to a cruiser and is sailing a racing sled as a cruiser a bad Idea?

I know we all have our own opinions and I am ready to read them all so don't be shy.

Thanks

I find your post confusing there are boats that have a classic look but regarding contemporary naval architecture there is not a classic one versus modern one.

I don't like the word modern and prefer the word contemporary. There are contemporary naval architecture, the one that represents the state of the art and more or less older designs, that if well designed represent the state of the art in different stages of evolution.

In what regards racing the state of the art moves pretty quickly and a 6 year old boat, if we are talking about top racing, does not represent the state of the art anymore. Regarding cruising the evolution is bit more slower but in what regards decades that evolution is very clear.

That's why I am confused, you ask if there are modern 60 ft boats able to do 12 to 14k in good conditions and then you talk about a 1980s Swan 54 a French built Atlantic 60, Tayana 55???

Those are not contemporary (or modern) boats but old designs. Yes there are boats with 60ft able to sail at those speeds in good conditions but unless you are talking about few and very, very excepcional conditions none of those boats you mention can do that.

Modern performance 60ft cruisers can, boats like the Swan 60, the Pogo 50 or the Solaris 58, boats that look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui06R-MizfQ

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQrMIv4ImzE

or these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF5q71urO4w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyINU88_kag

But even if they can reach those speeds in favorable conditions what these boats are able to make is effortlessly 10 k speed with relatively weak winds and that is what make them very fast boats.

[ka4wja]

Polux,
Semantics problems will always pop-up with folks of widely varied cultures, experiences, ages, etc. etc....and especially when discussing words like "modern" or "classic", or "contemporary", etc...


And, Polux, while I'm with you on being confused (originally), I don't think any of those multi-million dollar "modern 60' performance cruisers" you mention (Swan 60, Pogo 50 or Solaris 58) would fit Windrush's $200,000 budget...

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

I would like to stay under $200k knowing that whatever boat I get I will put some money into her

But, seriously, does anyone have any experience with how these modern, lightweight sleds (Pogo 50, Swan 60, etc.) go to windward at sea (meaning offshore, not "round the buoys" in a bay)???
Notwithstanding the very first sentence on the Nautor Swan 60 page: "The Swan 60 FD was conceived to meet a growing demand for a model engineered for performance, comfort and style."
I'm betting that going to windward, offshore, "comfort" wouldn't be a word used by the crew!

And, with the Pogo 50 touting it's fast downwind performance in "the ARC", etc., and stating: "Flat hull shape optimized for planing both upwind and downwind." And, its SA/D of: "35.16 for upwind / 67.06 for downwind."??
In my opinion, this sounds like a race boat....not a "performance cruiser"... And, here again, comfort isn't the first thing that comes to mind...
BUT...


But, I admit that I have never sailed one of these....upwind or down, anywhere!!
So, my opinion on them is almost moot....
Just saying they don't look all that "cruiser"-like, and don't appear to have upwind comfort in mind...



We all have different views on what any word might mean....so, fair winds...

John

[Pelagic]

This is just my personal opinion.

I feel the ability to go faster and faster with the advances in contemporary designs and materials as Polux ably describes, is part of the growing danger and temptation for cruising yachts. (Mono and Multi)

An old term... "Keeping a foot in the water", is what I call 'sea kindly', when a cruising yacht's weight, deeper displacement and conservative speed allows the speeding heavy seas to wash around it rather than to lift and throw it.

To me that is a self regulating safety feature to prevent sailors from being tempted to outrun heavy weather, instead of taking early avoiding actions

Two videos, two philosophies:

https://youtu.be/WUb6iOoWor4

https://youtu.be/FjbBTvnM1ZM

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Polux,
Semantics problems will always pop-up with folks of widely varied cultures, experiences, ages, etc. etc....and especially when discussing words like "modern" or "classic", or "contemporary", etc...


And, Polux, while I'm with you on being confused (originally), I don't think any of those multi-million dollar "modern 60' performance cruisers" you mention (Swan 60, Pogo 50 or Solaris 58) would fit Windrush's $200,000 budget...




But, seriously, does anyone have any experience with how these modern, lightweight sleds (Pogo 50, Swan 60, etc.) go to windward at sea (meaning offshore, not "round the buoys" in a bay)???
Notwithstanding the very first sentence on the Nautor Swan 60 page: "The Swan 60 FD was conceived to meet a growing demand for a model engineered for performance, comfort and style."
I'm betting that going to windward, offshore, "comfort" wouldn't be a word used by the crew!

And, with the Pogo 50 touting it's fast downwind performance in "the ARC", etc., and stating: "Flat hull shape optimized for planing both upwind and downwind." And, its SA/D of: "35.16 for upwind / 67.06 for downwind."??
In my opinion, this sounds like a race boat....not a "performance cruiser"... And, here again, comfort isn't the first thing that comes to mind...
BUT...


But, I admit that I have never sailed one of these....upwind or down, anywhere!!
So, my opinion on them is almost moot....
Just saying they don't look all that "cruiser"-like, and don't appear to have upwind comfort in mind...



We all have different views on what any word might mean....so, fair winds...

John

You are right, regarding the usd 200 000, I did not saw that but who would think that with that kind of money was possible to buy a modern 60ft performance boat able to do 13 or 14k?

And wrong regarding the Pogo 50 not to be seaworthy or not to be a performance cruiser.

The Pogo 50 is based on the type of boat that is making the vendee globe, just a bit smaller, meaning a extremely good offshore boat with the advantage to be designed to be solo sailed. With that old Swan 54, it is still possible to go relatively fast but it is needed a full experienced crew. With the Pogo it is possible to go fast alone if one is an enough good sailor to sail it really fast. It goes without spinnaker or gennacker faster than the Swan with Spinnaker.

And when I say type of boat I do not mean a relatively hull resemblance in a hugely heavier boat, for instance, the smaller brother, the Pogo 12.50 has the same hull as the Pogo S2 40class racer and regarding what a class 40 is able to take have a look at this one in a race around the world on the Southern Ocean (cape horn) and consider that the Pogo 50, being bigger and heavier, is more seaworthy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERwKZcacG0Q

They can be sailed solo because they are designed, like the class 40 or the vendee globe to be sailed fast 95% of the time on autopilot.

Of course, I am only replying regarding your wrongful assumption that these boats, namely the Pogo 50 is not a very seaworthy boat, as well as all the boats that I posted, but I don't want to convince nobody that this is the ideal boat for him. It will be the ideal cruising boat for some and it is not at all a race boat. Pogo makes also racing boats. The pogo 50 is a cruising boat with a nice interior for the ones that like a "clean" kind of zen interior:



Not at all a racing interior and the boat was a swing keel that allows it to anchor in less than 1.5m of water or enter any small port. Its is designed for long range cruising and voyaging, for the ones that enjoy to sail fast and like to have fun sailing. Regarding comfort I believe we all agree that a boat going really fast, except if the sea is flat, tends to be more uncomfortable than a slow boat.

The type of sailors that would like this boat for cruising would find a slow boat boring and the ones that like to go slowly will probably find the Pogo uncomfortable at speed. Regarding what the boat was designed and is used for you can listen to what the designer, Finot, says about the boat program: "Like its siblings in the Pogo range, the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising : it is light, wide, and features a deep (lifting !) draft and generous sail area. Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves. Its lean deck plan and large cockpit make it the ideal boat at the mooring."

Recently Bob Perry referring to the smaller sister, the Pogo 36 said that it was the ideal boat to cruise the eastern Pacific (or something like that). I guess that he was not thinking about the everyday cruiser but about cruisers that really enjoy sailing and like to go fast.

Off course, the Pogo 50 is a much better cruising boat than the smaller 36, specially in what concerns long range cruising.

This are the modern boats that can make the speed the OP was talking about. Off course, if that speed is not important for him....well, he should not say that he is looking for a modern 60ft performance cruiser able to do that kind of speeds, that is what the boats I posted are.

I agree that we all have different tastes regarding cruising boats and that is why there is so many different types on the market...and I like that, it would be very boring if all boats were the same or if all people had similar tastes

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

This is just my personal opinion.

I feel the ability to go faster and faster with the advances in contemporary designs and materials as Polux ably describes, is part of the growing danger and temptation for cruising yachts. (Mono and Multi)

An old term... "Keeping a foot in the water", is what I call 'sea kindly', when a cruising yacht's weight, deeper displacement and conservative speed allows the speeding heavy seas to wash around it rather than to lift and throw it.

To me that is a self regulating safety feature to prevent sailors from being tempted to outrun heavy weather, instead of taking early avoiding actions

Two videos, two philosophies:

https://youtu.be/WUb6iOoWor4

https://youtu.be/FjbBTvnM1ZM

Not fair at all, you show an heavy boat rolling soo much downwind that I almost got seasick just for looking at the images and then post a video montage of what apparently seems a modern sailboat being rolled.

That story regards a Vendee globe 20 years ago where several boats capsized. since then (the next vendee) the boats were profoundly modified by NAs in what regards stability (Finot was one that had a major contribution to the new box rule) and since then not a single of those boats capsized again (without having lost the keel) on the many circumnavigations races since that time (Vendee and Barcelona World race).

Put that old heavy rolling boat on the conditions those IMOCA boats survive on the high latitudes of the Southern Ocean, with 70k gusts and 10m waves and I bet that if you try enough it will capsize and sink. Remember that on those 20 years more than a hundred of Imocas passed on the high latitudes of the southern seas. Don't try to do that a hundred times with the oldie. You may run out of luck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLaysIKfiJ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUb6...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY83u2f1s_8

Besides that, the old rolling boat needs someone at the wheel with bad weather while sailing and those Imocas do that on autopilot.