Kidnapped sailor Jurgen Kantner

[boatman61]

Lets put it this way.. anywhere there is abject poverty, religious extremism in any of its many forms, political instability or warfare.. 'rich' white folks who go sailing will be at risk of encountering muggings, piracy, abduction for ransom or execution and assorted general racial abuse..
There are various sites like 'Noonsite' which keep track of inadvisable areas to visit however folks being what they are believe they've an inalienable right to go there regardless of advisories..
But.. Everyone is free to make their own personal risk assessments be they right for themselves or downright stupid.. lets face it.. there's agencies who specialise in 'War Tourism'.. and customers who still get upset when they get caught up in any fire fights.
Can't take the heat.. stay outa the kitchen.. or at least the countries where bad things can happen.
Having said that.. I have every sympathy for the person this thread is about.. its not something I would like to experience that's for sure.. and I sincerely hope the outcome is not a lethal lesson for other folk to learn from.
Best wishes Jurgen..

[weavis]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Then is it not wise to allow cruisers advise other cruisers of geographical areas, cultural propensities, and yes, even religious groups, which are more prone than most to treat cruisers badly? This is not an argument, but a very serious question intended to assist us in defining and identifying the limits of our commentary. What I mean is that when we mention a bad actor marina operator or a country with questionable customs and immigration agents, or policies it is not a condemnation of all marinas or countries or agents, but rather a word of caution to each to consider and value as they may choose. Where is the line is the question.

It is not wise to go on a rant against religions, condemn a country, demand retribution from God and discuss how to kill people. There are no limits to stating a place in your opinion is unsafe for travelers and giving a rational reason why without demanding that all members of a religion need to die because of this serious problem that unfortunately exists.

Its not hard really.... You have been on CF long enough to know the be nice rule.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by robbievardon

How sad and pathetic Weavis the response to a threat to a mans life. Until this thread I had no idea there was a pirate threat in the Phillipines and would have sailed there without knowing the risk. Argue about what : how to cut his head off?

To Robbie and Peers, I mean this in the nicest way
...that you really need to do your homework outside of CF, if you plan to travel by your own yacht to strange lands..

I reluctantly started this thread to update us on a particular plight of a fellow sailor....not to illicit social commentary of which i was aware would cause headaches for our great Mods like Weavis

Independently travelingg by sea you are exposed far more intimately to the benefits and risks of where you travel.

So you need to keep things in perspective by monitoringg recent political/social/ natural upheavals.
This should be part of your regular homework before deciding to visit any country

To put this in a sailors perspective:

I remember helping by phone an American couple cruising the Visayas to get back to Subic on board thier new Seahorse trawler. The monsoon surge weather was against them so they needed to work NW from bay to bay in early morning till they could get better situated and wait for a forecast easing in 2 days.

However, once anchored and waiting out the worst of the afternoon winds, the captain would freak out when a Filipino fishing boat shared the anchorage with the crew wearing balaclavas for sun/wind protection.

They assumed they were Abu Sayaf and would freak out, leave in the worst of weather and get blown back to where they started 2 days earlier seasick and exhausted.

This couple was not meant to cruise the Philippines and wisely shipped their boat to the States.

So when our Mods try to keep these discussions from going viral...it is for good reasons

[weavis]

Postscript.

I worked in Emergency medicine for a number of years... part of it involved scenarios of a similar nature.

Whilst we all abhor these actions and feel outraged.... it is always best to remember it is the work of a few and needs correction by the country. It is also best to not get into blanket accusations in public in a boating forum, no matter if there is justification in some of the comments. We have international members of all persuasions on the CF and I can tell you of friends from the south of the islands that are saddened and hurt over these actions.

I can express deep helplessness over Jurgens plight and can warn that travel in southern areas of the islands has its dangers..... Pelagic better than I.

Life sucks at times and all we can do is try to be better.

Man I hurt for him, lost his wife and now facing his own demise.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

To Robbie and Peers, I mean this in the nicest way
...that you really need to do your homework outside of CF, if you plan to travel by your own yacht to strange lands...

The part about doing your homework outside of CF is frightening in its own way. No single source is complete so it is probably always a good idea to use various sources. [I do not want to start an argument about religion or religious books, so I am not referring to spiritual matters.] The quote seems to suggest things that are actually informative are removed from CF. I hate to defend the moderators but I have not seen much removal of actual information, just overly vehement expression of opinion and, infrequently, radical thread drift. My sole complaint about removal is the when a lack of any accompanying comment may assist in future prevention of the problem.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

The part about doing your homework outside if CF is frightening in its own way. No single source is complete so it is probably always a good idea to use various sources. [I do not want to start an argument about religion or religious books, so I am not referring to spiritual matters.] The quote seems to suggest things that are actually informative are removed from CF. I hate to defend the moderators but I have not seen much removal of actual information just overly vehement expression of opinion and, infrequently, radical thread drift. My sole complains about removal is the lack of any accompanying comment that may assist in future prevention of the problem.

Thanks Brian. Now you know where we are coming from. We dont want to stop any information, just fights and bad manners. Pelagic always posts information that he knows first hand... It is good to have caring members.

[JPA Cate]

robbievardon,

I see you are a new member here, and in a sense, you've come in at the end of the story. The kidnapped sailor, whose wife was slain earlier in the attempt to get well meaning people to pony up for Jurgens' ransom is something most of us have been aware of for quite a while. The first CF thread about it was early last year.

It is not that anyone here is unmoved by the man's plight (or that of his wife), but that CF is singularly unable to provide meaningful help. It is a problem that the Duterte (sp?) regime is addressing, and moving towards trying to solve, but it is a big problem and a small nation. It is outside CF boundaries to advocate international intervention in national problems--and discuss whether or not it might be effective--have to find a political forum for that.

However, there are ways to learn about factors underlying the situation. I think it is a little simplistic to attribute the problems to only greed, but we have to understand that where people think--rightly or wrongly--that their survival is at issue, they will do whatever it takes to get the job done. One book I found helpful for understanding some background was "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I would certainly recommend it to any cruiser with a teenage girl aboard, because I think she needs to understand how she may be viewed, pretty shocking for a Westerner.

Furthermore, any kind of racist ideation leads to objectivization of the victims, and encourages dreadful behavior. So, to me, the decision is to be aware of and remove that kind of thought in myself if I find it, and hopefully that idea will spread. If you do go cruising, you will be encountering people of different appearance and values than yours. It is wise to be sensitive to those issues, and respect the people and their country. The best way I found to cultivate that sensitivity is to read about the countries' histories, individual biographies, and and ideological backgrounds, try to understand how they think, as well as feel how they might feel.

Ann

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

...........you really need to do your homework outside of CF.......

Best advice ever given on this forum.

[Saleen411]

However, once anchored and waiting out the worst of the afternoon winds, the captain would freak out when a Filipino fishing boat shared the anchorage with the crew wearing balaclavas for sun/wind protection.

They assumed they were Abu Sayaf and would freak out, leave in the worst of weather and get blown back to where they started 2 days earlier seasick and exhausted.

Not to be argumentative, but I can see how this would be a concern...esp for those that, as you say, haven't done their homework.

Maybe balaclavas are more ubiquitous in the PI than I would have thought. I never saw any when I was there last March, though admittedly I spent most of my time on only 2 islands. However, I DID see lots of armed security guards at or near the hotels I stayed at.

Here's is a link regarding Davao attempting to dissuade people ( muslims ) from covering their faces. Davao dissuades Muslims from covering face in public - The Manila Times Online

No question I would consider you THE expert in all things PI....glad you enjoy it and feel safe.

[Pelagic]

Saleem 411..... I can understand your aprehension.

If you don't think about the reasons, it can be intimidating.

Simple fishermen living in open boats cannot afford high strength Sun Blocks, so often wear a hand made took on top of their heads to pull down as a face mask for protection.

To them, as natural as a baseball cap and without any devious intent.


My post 10 gave researched crime and kidnapping rates to show that most of the Philippines do not have a major crime problem....this is the kind of independent research I was suggesting any tourist should do

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Saleem 411..... My post 10 gave researched crime and kidnapping rates to show that most of the Philippines do not have a major crime problem....this is the kind of independent research I was suggesting any tourist should do

The problem is the usual one with statistics. They are misused when they speak for themselves. You added line in one of the posts was probably the most telling -about the limit of your cruising area.

Heck, if I relied on misused statistics I'd never even visit a selection of US cities, including the capital city. The truth is, a large part of the risk can be avoided (i.e., mitigated) by selecting the "where" within the problem statistical area. In fact remove a few of our most dangerous places, and you are safer in the US than most of the "safe European countries (unless you remove their less safe place too).

BTW, although still "opinion," I do not think of the Philippines as a small country in geographical area, and especially not in population. It could be considered small based on land area, and, yes, it is definitely a poorer country, if not simply a poor country. Even if the distribution of wealth is skewed (what a nice phrase I am using -we need a smilie of someone patting their own back) it may also have a skewed distribution of nice people (many) offset by perhaps fewer, but nastier, bad guys.

[Pelagic]

All information can be skeewed as is presently being discussed in the checking electronic navigation gear thread

One can then only continually assess, double check and trust their own gut feelings, without making universal statements that do not allow others to do the same.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

All information can be skeewed as is presently being discussed in the checking electronic navigation gear thread

One can then only continually assess, double check and trust their own gut feelings, without making universal statements that do not allow others to do the same.

I can't disagree with that.

[tatomaceda]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

I moved to the Philippines in 2003 and been here off and on since then, now settling in central Visayas region. the first place we lived was in Mindanao for 2 years.

I have traveled by land all over the Philippines except for the hot spot in Marawi, Zamboanga and Sulu area. Now sailing in Cental Philippines for the most part.

All I can say is, yes kidnappings are terrible and so is any kind of crime against humanity. But if I listen to the new in America about the same type of crimes happening almost every day, I may be afraid to go to the US. But the fact is most of the US is peaceful as is the same in the Philippines.

I would not walk the gang infested streets of LA or Chicago anymore than sailing in Sulu waters. It just would not be very smart.

Now on a RARE occasion, crimes happen in "peaceful" areas in any country of the world including the Philippines. But I do not let those things stop me from doing what I want to do, and going where I want to go.

After experiencing the Philippines for 13 years and now for the last year sailing through the islands, I have not even gotten anything stolen much less been in any kind of danger. The people here are naturally peaceful and very friendly, especially to foreigners that are friendly back.

If you sail here, you are welcome to come to our island and anchor in our peaceful lagoon, we will show you great hospitality and remember, Its more fun in the Philippines!

Thank you Windrush for putting things into perspective. As a Filipino-American, currently living in Jersey City but visiting Manila every 1.5 years, I am disheartened whenever disparaging news about the Philippines come to light. Not that this subject should not, information is information and I leave it to each one to make of it what they want, but I grew up there and know that this is not the country these kidnappings make people think it is.
I have a sister in Davao, a close friend who owns a farm in General Santos, and neither of them have felt unsafe living there.
Just recently a friend of mine who has moved from Manila to Palawan told me that they are holding a 250 mile Hobie Cat race from Palawan to Batangas -- there is definitely love for sailing among Filipinos. And if the current economic boom continues, I expect there to be more Filipinos to take up sailing and hopefully cruise.
I sincerely hope you don't remove the Philippines as a place to sail to or visit. It is truly a warm and friendly place. And if you scuba dive, then Tubattaha or Apo Reef are your heaven.
Salamat po.

[daletournier]

Most that read this forum or comment regarding the Philippines have never sailed there. I spent approximately 12 months cruising the Philippines 2014-2015 and it was wonderful. I was also at Samal two weeks prior to the kidnappings and knew two of the people taken (canadians).

The Philippines has approximately 7000 islands its more than just Mindanao. Most of the people are Christians, real Christians not western Christians (Im not religious). I found a majority of the people polite, gentle and friendly. Other than the Mindanao area I had absolutely no problems or felt threatened in anyway, even Samal the people are wonderful.

In regards to the fishing balaclava thing, this is fairly normal around asia.

Im been back in Australia for three months, the truth is I have felt more aggression here than over there. I lock my dinghy up here, ive been abused in Bunnings and only 4 days ago in a engineering shop was told " we are a (bleep) engineering shop not a dress shop use (bleeping) mm's"!!!!

I am a softer nicer person in asia than I am here this is due to asia and particularly the Philippines being a less confrontational culture, not once have I come close to puching an engineer in the mouth.

Its easy to focus on the statically small but serious problems ,but in reality if you keep away from the Sulu sea and Mindanao area and treat people with respect you are very unlike to experience anything but enjoyable cruising.

Of course I feel for the guy who's kidnapped and wish him the best.

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