NSW South Coast - Coastal Cruising

[ozsailer]

G'day Mozzie,
just a couple of things that have not been mentioned. With any type of cruising you must also consider what the risks are. On the east coast of Oz one must consider are various river bar crossings. If you have not done these before there are a few very important rules to understand. One must "always research your crossing prior to crossing" Always cross on a rising tide and preferably in the last quarter of the rising tide. Always be mindful of the sea conditions when undertaking the crossing. Large seas from a certain direction and have a dramatic effect on a bar crossing regardless of the tide. The roads and maritime website has a section in it that allows one to view many bar entrances via web cams in real time. An excellent tool to view an entrance and become familiar with it layout etc. Go to you local VMR or yacht club and talk to as many people as possible regarding this for the best information.
In relation to leaving your mooring. It is not as regulated as some are leading you to believe. We have left out mooring unattended when we cruise for periods up to 6 months. All that is required is a letter of request to you local RMS to vacate your mooring for an extended period (nominate period) We have been doing this for years with no issue.
For checking weather we use the BOM site. The section called Meteye is a god send for boaters in Australia. Become familiar with all its sections and how to use it.
Lots more info out there but this is a good starter. Hope this is of some assistance.


Greg H
SV Sunshine
Lagoon 410S2

[picklesandjesse]

Elanora has just been put up for sale. She's a Swanson 27 that's a one off built by Lindsay Buckmaster for himself in 1974. Terry, the current owner has had her for 35 years and has just spent $20,000 on a new engine and installation. I bought this boat off Lindsay in 78 and I can tell you that it's way above any production boat. Lindsay has now retired but was very much in demand in Sydney by boat builders. He is a pattern maker by trade which means very highly skilled.
Elanora is fast for her size and we used to beat a Brolga 33 regularly in races at Coffs Harbour. The Brolga was the local boat to beat in those days and was fully crewed. Fun days.
She is kept on a mooring in Mosman Bay and is not a project boat. Lots of space for her size as she's not like a normal 27ft boat.
If you Google Elanora Swanson 27 for sale she comes up. If you want to talk to Lindsay let me know as we are very good friends still. John

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by Mozzie

Hi everyone,

I'm a teacher, and so is my partner, and we are looking to buy a boat for family coastal cruises based out of Bateman's bay. Being teachers we would fit in maybe two one week and a fortnight cruise every year.

We would be looking at something like a Compass 27 or Clansman 30, and would do some cruises up and down the coast to the likes of Eden, Jarvis Bay, Nowra, Sydney/Hawkesbury and maybe even Tassie, NZ or Lord Howe.

Any comments/advice/tips/warnings given that these plans are still in their embryonic stages?

Hi Mozzie,
I would suggest that you consider bigger vessels. Prices have never been lower and you will get used to handling a larger vessel very quickly.
We have just returned from cruising the Kimberley in our S&S34. A smaller vessel would be very tight for more than two people, I presume you have a young family.
We met a very capable young couple sailing a Clansman 30 (Mirrool) they commented on how small the vessel is down below and that they are looking for something bigger. A good little boat though.
You are on the right track, looking at designs that have a reputation for Sea kindliness. When it gets rough, a badly designed boat will have a much more uncomfortable motion.
You might find it difficult to venture far from home during school holidays, waiting for a good weather window is a necessary part of sailing. Our previous vessel was a Farrier 31 trimaran. Wonderful sailing boat but very big to tow and very expensive. Perhaps a smaller Farrier would be a good starter?
Good luck with your plans. Dave

[Jim Cate]

G'Day again, Mozzie,

I'd agree with the poster upthread who suggested looking at a bit larger boats for your proposed purpose. While it is true that many have had successful cruises, even quite long ones like RTW, the comfort factor goes up pretty steeply between a 27 foot older, narrow beam vessel and say a 32 or 34 foot one. The S&S 34 mentioned above is a great boat with a great pedigree and a long history of successes, both racing and cruising. Could do a LOT worse!

I've done a lot of coastal cruising (California) in a S&S 30, and thought it was adequate in terms of seaworthiness and comfort... except that she liked to sail at big heel angles, a habit shared by lots of older, slack bilge narrow designs. This is ok for daysailing and coastal cruising where you stop most nights and anchor. As soon as you start considering offshore passages, like NZ, this big heel angle starts to be a true difficulty, for it is far more fatiguing to sail at 20-25 degrees heel than at 10-15. This became apparent to Ann and I when we sailed the S&S to Hawaii and back, our first real offshore venture. We had a successful cruise, found that we liked water sailing">blue water sailing... and put that boat on the market, for it was just too small and too tender for passage making. The 36 foot ex-race boat that replaced her was our home for 17 years and 86,000 miles... the difference in creature comfort (and speed and stowage space and general livability) was enormous.

I'm not saying that you should go that large, just that you should consider boats a bit larger than the size you mentioned. The costs are not all that much greater and the benefits are worthwhile.

Jim

[Mozzie]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone.

For those suggesting a bigger boat, we don't have our heart set on Compass or Clansman. The plan is to start looking and maybe buy in a year or so. Things are still quite flexible. Certainly, for that length you get one or two quarter berths, a stove and sink, some kind of settee arrangement, a semi enclosed head and a vee berth. I can see how another 5-10 foot makes a big difference.

What are people's opinions on full keels vs racing keels. From what I have heard, Full keels are a lot more reliable which is desirable, as is an attached rudder. Plus they tend to have lower draught, Obviously fin keels are more reliable, faster and allow better sailing upwind.

Originally Posted by ZULU40

A lot of cheap boats around in that bracket, that is cheap to buy but the outgoings are more or less the same. These entry level boats tend to have run a course of neglect before the owner trades out of them to get out of mooring or marina dock fees and upkeep.

Beware too that some are more capable than others. I think NZ with a family might be a bit of an ask for a lot of them though. The rest seems feasible.

Is it a plan without a budget?

We'd start off with small steps, a few day hops to nearby anchorages and then expanding to longer day cruises and multi day cruises. By that time I'd expect experience would tell us.

We don't really have a budget per se - the aim is to keep it within our means. Perhaps at around a $30k boat. Certainly no more than $40k.

On the matter of boats being run down, what is available around the South Coast in terms of hardstands? I've had a bit of a look, but it doesn't seem like there is much available for several months to allow cleaning up/repairs/bringing up to standard on weekends etc.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Mozzie

Thanks for all the great advice everyone.

For those suggesting a bigger boat, we don't have our heart set on Compass or Clansman. The plan is to start looking and maybe buy in a year or so. Things are still quite flexible. Certainly, for that length you get one or two quarter berths, a stove and sink, some kind of settee arrangement, a semi enclosed head and a vee berth. I can see how another 5-10 foot makes a big difference.

What are people's opinions on full keels vs racing keels. From what I have heard, Full keels are a lot more reliable which is desirable, as is an attached rudder. Plus they tend to have lower draught, Obviously fin keels are more reliable, faster and allow better sailing upwind.

For cruising from where I sit, an encapsulated ballast common to longer keels is more desirable for the simple reason if the keel contacts something you are most likely just dealing with damage, where a bolt on iron keel common to fin keels will stress, potentially punch out the bolts connecting the keel to the hull.

Adversely, longer keel boats are going to be more tender and heel more for the same weight so would need to reduce sail to maintain the same heel. And are slower less manoeuvrable as they have more wetted surface. Although in these length boats thats not going to be a dominant issue.

Similarly spade rudders without a skeg have no protection against grounding and risk bending jamming the rudder shaft.

Racing boats are the way they are because for them a half a knot means winning or losing, the cruising boat is a different criteria where safety and reliability are the driving concerns.

Originally Posted by Mozzie

We'd start off with small steps, a few day hops to nearby anchorages and then expanding to longer day cruises and multi day cruises. By that time I'd expect experience would tell us.

We don't really have a budget per se - the aim is to keep it within our means. Perhaps at around a $30k boat. Certainly no more than $40k.

When you get serious on buying a particular boat then have the boat surveyed by an expert and keep 25% of the available budget for repairs. really that determines your buying budget.

Originally Posted by Mozzie

On the matter of boats being run down, what is available around the South Coast in terms of hardstands? I've had a bit of a look, but it doesn't seem like there is much available for several months to allow cleaning up/repairs/bringing up to standard on weekends etc.

Managing a boat at sea at night means a constant alert look out, and watch keeping organised in shifts. Tools like AIS and radar will assist in assessing nearby risks.

Hardstanding is probably cheaper than a berth at a marina over time, but hard standing means you need access to a boat lift. The availability of a boat lift means you are limited to more organised marinas where berthing is at more of a premium.

[MLOI]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

For cruising from where I sit, an encapsulated ballast common to longer keels is more desirable for the simple reason if the keel contacts something you are most likely just dealing with damage, where a bolt on iron keel common to fin keels will stress, potentially punch out the bolts connecting the keel to the hull.

Adversely, longer keel boats are going to be more tender and heel more for the same weight so would need to reduce sail to maintain the same heel. And are slower less manoeuvrable as they have more wetted surface. Although in these length boats thats not going to be a dominant issue.

Similarly spade rudders without a skeg have no protection against grounding and risk bending jamming the rudder shaft.

All the above points are no doubt true... but actually don't matter much at all in most instances.
I've just finished 6 months cruising from Melbourne to north Queensland in a 36" sloop with a 1.9m fin with bulb keel. Separate spade rudder. During that time we cruised in company with a few different boats, including two full keel traditional cruisers ( a HR and a typical american cruiser).

Guess what we found?

All of us touched bottom a couple of times - between Southport and Brisbane, and inside Fraser Island. That's because everyone calculates their passage for when they have enough water for their boat. And everyone pushes just a little on a rising tide. None of us got stuck.

When we did passages together we sailed along at the same speed - occasionally too close to each other at night. That's because for keel boats of about that size, something around 7 knots is comfortable speed. Any faster and we were slowing our boats down for comfort. I might have had two reefs in while the ketch had dropped the main and was on jib and mizzen -but the outcome was the same 6 to 7 knots cruising along.
Also consider that we were often leaving on the same tide, and aiming to get to our destination at the same tide, so no point going faster. And you tend to motor if you are going slower.

Now - my boat loves sailing to weather, as soon as we are even slightly cracked off we get good speed. So I could perhaps point a little higher and go upwind a little faster. But it never mattered - mostly we didn't sail upwind, and when we did, the other issues meant that we mostly did the same sort of speeds.

(I also put our boat aground at Bermagui due to stupidity - but it was low tide and we floated off after an embarrassing hour)

Only area where I loved having our fin keel was in marinas - I could reverse our boat in like a car. But that just seemed to mean I got tighter berths (plus I did reverse in, when the others tended to go in forwards. But I have a sugar scoop and a 6 yo girl, so stern in is much better for us)

Perhaps an argument could be made for full keels when you have a barway to cross like you do in Batemans Bay? So it is not likely to be as bad if you bounce off the bottom in marginal conditions?
Dunno. But I suspect there would be a very limited range of conditions where I would be happy to go in with a 1.5m long keel but not happy with a 1.9m fin keel. But I hate barways anyway.

Buy the boat you like, don't stress too much over details like keel type etc. Really good anchoring gear will mean a lot more to you than a fin vs bulb vs long keel for coastal cruising.

(If I had money and was ready to go like you, I'd happily take the cole 35 mentioned above and just go. Or an S&S 34 for the right price. Or an Adams or a Beneteau or Jeanneau. They will all be a bit different, have slightly different problems. But they will all let you cruise. And that's fun)

Mike

[JPA Cate]

Mozzie, since the time we met, Jim and i have sailed on fin keel or cutaway forefoot boats. Their safety/reliability depends on the fin and on the attachment. Seakindliness depends a lot on hull shape: it is not only full keel boats which are seakindly. Where groundings are concerned, it can be harder to un-ground a full keel.

All boats are compromises. You pick the one you like best and live with the bits that are not quite as you might like--or change them.

Ann

[Jim Cate]

FWiW: There are folks who express near religious attachment to full keel yachts, and apparently fear keel failure as a real and present danger in other designs.

One should remember that the VAST majority of yachts now sailing have fin keels of some description, and that that majority grows larger every day. Most of those fins are bolted on to the hulls. A truly small fraction of those vessels experience keel failures of any sort. Rejecting all fin keel yachts outright is a pretty restrictive condition. A more important factor is build quality and overall design parameters relative to your proposed usage.

Jim

[Nikki S]

Originally Posted by Mozzie

Maybe we should just get a Hartley TS16 and camp in our tent

oh man i grew up on a Hartley TS16. We were a family of 5 in morton bay, and then took it down to gippsland lakes in Vic. Don't underestimate the joy that can be had with one. dont necessarily need a tent either. 5 of us slept in there!

[Mozzie]

Thanks for all of the comments folks. Thy have been really helpful.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Mozzie, since the time we met, Jim and i have sailed on fin keel or cutaway forefoot boats. Their safety/reliability depends on the fin and on the attachment. Seakindliness depends a lot on hull shape: it is not only full keel boats which are seakindly. Where groundings are concerned, it can be harder to un-ground a full keel.

All boats are compromises. You pick the one you like best and live with the bits that are not quite as you might like--or change them.

Ann

I'm thinking on the NSW south coast, there are a lot of shallow bars. Looking at the RMS coastal charts, there are a lot of bars that are 0-2m in depth. I'm guessing it would probably be wise to get a shallower draft boat as that will increase windows for bar crossings.

[Mozzie]

Originally Posted by Nikki S

oh man i grew up on a Hartley TS16. We were a family of 5 in morton bay, and then took it down to gippsland lakes in Vic. Don't underestimate the joy that can be had with one. dont necessarily need a tent either. 5 of us slept in there!

I hope you didn't sail it down

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Mozzie

Thanks for all of the comments folks. Thy have been really helpful.



I'm thinking on the NSW south coast, there are a lot of shallow bars. Looking at the RMS coastal charts, there are a lot of bars that are 0-2m in depth. I'm guessing it would probably be wise to get a shallower draft boat as that will increase windows for bar crossings.

Mozzie, for crossing bars from the open sea, it is not usually the draft of the boat (in the range of boat sizes you are considering) that limits crossing, but rather the sea state on the bar. That is, the difference between a 1.3 m and a 2 m draft will not open up many windows. Once inside the bars, sometimes there are places where that draft difference would matter.

For reference, the two boats in which Ann and I have cruised the NSW coast both have 2.2 meter draft. That figure hasn't kept us from crossing any bars, but it has kept us out of some shallow anchorages. For us, the benefits of the deep draft have outweighed the drawbacks. YMMV.

Jim

[HankOnthewater]

Have, a look at this, a couple cruising in a Clansman 30, and those boats are well within the $30k you mentioned. I have not looked at the whole video, or at their webset of 'free range sailing'
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbU...rJ4OZCNH7-gjjQ

[GILow]

I am biased but you are in Swanson territory.

One of the mid sized to smaller Swansons will not set you back much and are designed for the conditions. The Swanson 28 is very commodious for it's length and super dependable, a lot of boat for the money.

The Arends 33 is a Swanson with a GOOD interior, Mr Arends bought the hulls from the Swanson Bros and did the fitouts himself, a little more pricey than an equivalent sized Swanson but a damn side nicer inside.

Edit: I see now there is already one recommendation of a Swanson.