Crew Available: Crewing as a female. Sketchy vs. Otherwise

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I am under no illusion that bad things happen to some women on boats or that there are bad guys out there who try to take advantage. But if I were taking on crew and a prospective crew person announced to me that we wouldn’t be bunkmates I think I’d find that to be so presumptive and conceited that I’d burst out laughing.

It's an interesting balance to achieve. I get a fair number of female applicants as crew on delivery. I KNOW I'm not going to consider a sexual component to the crew-skipper relationship. I don't KNOW that about other crew members. *sigh* I am clear about privacy on board. I am clear that anyone can come to me with issues and I'll sort them out. The only "special treatment" that women get is an opportunity to talk with other women that have sailed with me before.

On board I'm in charge. Too many years in government and corporate worlds to consider a relationship with someone who works for me.

On the other hand, if a women starts out aggressively by saying she won't be a bunkmate when that isn't even on the table then I question whether there is sufficient trust to have her on board in the first place.

[wolfgal]

interesting responses guys.

yet, it is curious how "aggressively" slipped into your reply, Auspicious.

please remember that there are those who ask for "crew" but who actually want a "crewing bunk mate".

and please try not take this personally. in this thread, we are attempting to help a young woman find safe crewing.

and please know that some gals find it in their best interest to calmly and very sympathetically make their position on the matter made before making a passage with a near stranger.

how else would you have potential females who wish to crew express themselves?

[wolfgal]

and guys... i think i understand your responses now.

the last time i was in the states, i couldn't believe how utterly "correct" all the men were. they'd open doors and avoid looking at me (as if it would be taken as a sexual assault by me or something). it was incredible how careful men were not to say or do something that could be misconstrued. (and this is not to say that all are "correct" by any means, please bear with me.)

as someone, who has lived abroad for the longest time, lived in different cultures (and languages) mostly in europe and the middle east, hitchhiked and camped, taken 24h buses, trains, boats..., all over, ...yes basically traveled extensively, mostly on her own, please believe when when i say there are some fine gentlemen in San Francisco!

so yes, before laughing your heads off at my response or stating that my suggestion is said with an "agressive" tone (geez!), imagine for a moment that the OP is about to crew for a man who may not have the same education and/or behave toward women as you do.

gals who get out there and travel learn the easy way (taking good advice from others who have figured it out) or the hard way, which is basically involves a few hard knocks.

i do hope this angle helps shed light on my previous comment.


wolfie

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

interesting responses guys.

yet, it is curious how "aggressively" slipped into your reply, Auspicious.

please remember that there are those who ask for "crew" but who actually want a "crewing bunk mate".

and please try not take this personally. in this thread, we are attempting to help a young woman find safe crewing.

and please know that some gals find it in their best interest to calmly and very sympathetically make their position on the matter made before making a passage with a near stranger.

how else would you have potential females who wish to crew express themselves?

I can see that so I think the best solution is to take the time to get to know each other well enough so a comfort level is reached that would make a statement like that where one party announces they wouldn’t be sharing beds seem unnecessary.

I think that as you gradually get to know each other in a closer setting once you’re actually underway, mutual attraction might happen or might not happen, but for it have any meaning it needs to be mutual and both parties should probably do their best to hide any attraction they may be feeling until the voyage is over out of consideration of how uncomfortable it might make others onboard. Then, once you’re back on land one of the people involved can make their feelings known and find out if the other party feels similarly in an environment where there’s not forced close contact with each other 24/7 as there is during an offshore passage.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

yet, it is curious how "aggressively" slipped into your reply, Auspicious.

Because how else am I supposed to take such a statement? What on earth would make a person make such an assumption as that I would do that?

If you go back through my posts here about crewing--not just this thread--I've said over and over that judgment is my number one criteria. I can teach people to sail. I can't teach them to make good decisions. For someone to make such an inappropriate and insulting assumption calls her judgment into question.

I have certainly run into people, male and female, looking for sexual partners. For a woman to assume all men are is rude and sexist.

This is an old thread and the woman in question apparently went sailing and was looking for validation of her decision if I recall correctly.

Originally Posted by wolfgal

how else would you have potential females who wish to crew express themselves?

Just like anyone else. Apply to the opportunity announcement with a resume and go through the telephone interview. If s/he wants previous crew references I have them. Gender has nothing to do with it. If s/he feels uncomfortable then don't sail with me. I have plenty of other candidates.

[JPA Cate]

I'll take a little stab at trying to sort this out.....

Auspicious, based on his posts, seems to approach skippering in a professional way. jtsailjt, from his posts, seems to be an enlightened American male.

However, for a young woman, with little experience of the sailing scene, how is she to discriminate them from mashers, who still exist? We all remember being young, with little experience, and little money, too, and the sense that time is precious. And you have older women like me, who have already experienced the sailor who claims to have an open relationship with his wife--like she's married, but he isn't! How much of a threat do those guys offer? at worst, a lifetime of self re-criminations, loss of self esteem, and a backlog of rage at men; and at best, the memory of an afternoon that went wrong.

What I'm thinking is that men, generally, tend to minimize what the girl has to lose, when they think about the situation. And the women who have had the bad experiences tend to empathize with the potential trauma of the situation--the part that is hardest for the guys to see might apply. And therefore, the advice of the elder women will almost always be ultra conservative. Do remember that (in the US, sorry don't know world wide stats) one in four women has been raped. There are a lot of older than teenage women who already know about the pain and self hate such an incident can cause, so women, generally, will be careful, and give careful advice. Some of us were taught by our mothers to remember that men, generally are bigger and stronger than us and they can force us if we put ourselves in that situation. And, sometimes men act like they have a right to a woman's body, regardless of what she wants.

There's an old story, and it is always reported as true, but I don't know whether or not it is. It goes like this. There was a woman who volunteered as crew for a sail from SF to HI. About midway, the skipper started trying to get her in the sack with him. She refused. He insisted. To get him to control himself, she resorted to throwing winch handles overboard. When they were down to one winch handle, he quit.

The attitudes are slowly changing, but I think the advice older women give to younger will be based more on the years beforehand than what is usually the norm now. All changes come slowly in society.

I want to add, I'm sorry if it sounds aggressive or ridiculous to say up front that one is not available for sex. I do see how it can be taken as presumptive; however, it comes from fear. But, if she hasn't the courage for a "wait and see", or if she thinks she shouldn't have to say it at all, but has been advised to make it clear, before she's on a long trip, I guess it's going to be awkward for both the young woman and the men to whom she wants to make it clear. She's doing the best she can.

Ann

[Auspicious]

Ann,

I think you know I think highly of you. You can crew for me any time. There is half a planet in the way, but still.... *grin*

I hear you. I get the statistics. Women do statistically experience more domestic violence. Consider a man (me) subject to such violence with the added burden that calling the police would likely result in me being the one going to jail.

I maintain that if you think you need to make a statement about sex then you don't - you just don't go. There is a huge element in trust in the skipper-crew relationship that goes both ways. I turn crew away when they "don't feel right." I've had crew decide not to come for the same reason. I respect that even if they didn't really have anything to worry about. Going to sea with a foundation that lacks trust is just not a good idea. Your life is in the hands of the watchstander. There must be trust. If there is not, don't go.

The reality is that there are lots of people out there looking for love and some of them are looking on boats. Men and women. People are looking for free rides and may be more passengers than crew. Men and women. That isn't good for anyone. I have had women applying for crew positions intimate *ahem* opportunities. They never made it to the boat.

In my experience dealing with a lot of sexual harassment in a corporate setting, women are not always blameless. The issue is not black and white. I may have posted before that I had a lot of women and racial/ethnic minorities working for me. My "numbers" were good and HR would come around once in a while and ask what I was doing. I treat everyone the same. Clear performance goals and recognition (salary, bonus, promotion) on performance. Lots of growth and kicking the baby bird out of the nest to move on to the next opportunity. HR would rustle around and decide what I did couldn't really be done elsewhere. *grin* Sexual harassment is real. Male on female is more common but not always the case. People should not leap to conclusions. Allegations are not proof.

[JPA Cate]

@Auspicious,

I would guess the female crew you take on feel quite comfortable with how you are with them. ...And thank you for the compliment, too.

To me, it's okay if those who are more afraid fail to pass your interview standards. Ultimately, it's their (and your) life and you each get to make your own decisions.

My post really is directed to the guys who don't "get it" about what the shy women are on about. If they can understand there are real bases for the fear, perhaps they can be more tolerant when they encounter it.

Yes, about women abusing their partners. It does happen. Knew such a man one time. Very hard for one in such a position to get help, too, a lot of pressure to just "don't let it happen," and denigrating of his manliness because he did let it happen.

However, this thread is really about a young woman's fears, and ways she can conduct herself, so that she is both not hit on, and gets to go sailing. Maybe the most practical thing is trying to find a female skipper she thinks she can trust, and develop some sailing skills, so that she has competency based self assurance that will spread over to the social sphere.

Ann

[Nibiruwayne]

Recommend you buy your own boat or crew for a female. Crewing for a male skipper. Crewing for a male skipper amd male crew is like a first date with no ending scheduled.
An untrained , unskilled, inexperienced male or female crew is a liability to the skipper.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

However, this thread is really about a young woman's fears, and ways she can conduct herself, so that she is both not hit on, and gets to go sailing. Maybe the most practical thing is trying to find a female skipper she thinks she can trust, and develop some sailing skills, so that she has competency based self assurance that will spread over to the social sphere.

I haven't reread this whole thread. Working from memory I may misstate some things. It doesn't matter as what I have to offer is just an example.

Fear is a very real thing. It can be irrational and still be real. Fear can have many components. For example the woman in question here may have been fearful of a sexual relationship she didn't want, and also fearful that if she didn't take the opportunity she might not have another one. Conflicting fears can lead to poor decisions or indecision. I suggest you can see that in anchorages in many places that are staging areas for passages or even hops like crossing from Florida to the Bahamas. People sit around afraid to make a mistake and go and afraid not to go. One boat starts raising anchor and heads pop up all over the anchorage and a grand scurry takes place. *grin*

As you'll recall I am a story teller. Most have morals. I was getting ready to leave Fort Lauderdale on a delivery for Annapolis. The wind was clocking as a mild cold front crossed and was at the moment from the North. My plan was to chase the cold front out into the Gulf Stream and ride Ely and SEly for all it was worth. As crew trundled down the dock with provisions from an early morning shop an "old salt" stopped me and asked if I was really going to leave as I had said in the bar the night before (we had all arrived the previous afternoon and I'd stopped for a drink after settling in and before early to bed). "The wind is from the north" he said "you're going to die." I responded "Nope - no time for the seas to develop, the cold front is moving, the wind will keep clocking. I do this all the time." "Can I follow you?" he asked. "If you can keep up."

People in fear often look for validation of their decisions. That's part of why we see posts that amount to "I just bought thus and so. Is it any good?" They are afraid of having made a mistake and don't really want to know - they want someone to tell them they did fine.

At least the woman here asked before she left but I recall having the perception that she had already decided to go and was looking for validation. I may not remember correctly.

I take some issue with the recommendation that women specifically look for women to crew for. In that scenario one may or may not be subject to unwanted sexual advances however there is a lot more to a skipper-crew relationship than that. Does the skipper make good decisions? Does the skipper know what s/he is doing?

I know one female skipper who is adamant that Lake Worth FL to West End Bahamas is a good idea. Faced with both set and drift calculations and empirical data she takes off in a huff and continues to do something silly. She ends up hand steering for hours (many autopilots get fussy about sustained high crab angles) and insists that's just the way it goes. Lots of wasted time and fuel and a bumpy ride that need not be. She isn't a bad skipper because she's female. She's just a bad skipper.

Before I met my wife I dated a number of women. I paid for a lot of sailing courses. Here in Annapolis we have a company called Womanship - women teaching women. They are awful. No structure, no measurables, a good bit of misandry. Every other sailing school in the area is better (I like J/World best).

I also take issue with the concept because it is sexist. I can't abide sexism, racism, ageism, et al. If I don't like someone you can be assured it is personal and not due to some irrelevant characteristic. If a male skipper only accepted male crew would you not object? You should.

That isn't to say that sometimes characteristics aren't relevant. Most men have more upper body strength than most women. On training and certification deliveries I insist on the woman in a couple showing she can drive and put the (bloody) husband on anchor detail and running dock lines.

In the end no one, female or male, should get on a boat under the command of someone that they don't trust. If another crew member is of concern then talk to the skipper. If s/he can't or won't resolve the issue then don't go. There are more boats.

That some characteristics aren't or shouldn't be relevant doesn't mean I don't notice that they exist. If I have a black crew member who speaks French or Creole and has their head screwed on straight there are parts of the Caribbean I'm going to take advantage of that. I don't much like "pink and blue" jobs but that doesn't mean my warped sense of humor won't lead me to ask a male to clean the heads and a female to dump the garbage. I entertain myself.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think that as you gradually get to know each other in a closer setting once you’re actually underway, mutual attraction might happen or might not happen, but for it have any meaning it needs to be mutual and both parties should probably do their best to hide any attraction they may be feeling until the voyage is over out of consideration of how uncomfortable it might make others onboard. Then, once you’re back on land one of the people involved can make their feelings known and find out if the other party feels similarly in an environment where there’s not forced close contact with each other 24/7 as there is during an offshore passage.

This is a big one, and how I have always thought. Making any indication of interest while underway means risking making the other party uncomfortable and possibly even fearful. Once someone thinks you are considering them as a potential sex partner things can be very awkward, to say the least. Just don't do it. When safely in harbor and they are free to leave is the time for that.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Before I met my wife I dated a number of women. I paid for a lot of sailing courses. Here in Annapolis we have a company called Womanship - women teaching women. They are awful. No structure, no measurables, a good bit of misandry. Every other sailing school in the area is better (I like J/World best).

I also take issue with the concept because it is sexist. I can't abide sexism, racism, ageism, et al. If I don't like someone you can be assured it is personal and not due to some irrelevant characteristic. If a male skipper only accepted male crew would you not object? You should.

I have no knowledge of the quality of the Womanship training but I do value their perspective. I have seen too many men spoil sailing for women by yelling at them or even blaming them for their own mistakes (less commonly I have seen women yelling at men aboard). IIRC the Womanship motto is "No one yells". Amen. It has long been known that women learn better in all-women environments, which is why the elite women's colleges were reluctant to admit men even after the elite men's colleges had admitted women. I think a women-only sail course has a useful place. Perhaps someday the gender of one's classmates or crewmates won't matter, but we are not there yet.

Greg

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Nibiruwayne

Recommend you buy your own boat or crew for a female. Crewing for a male skipper. Crewing for a male skipper amd male crew is like a first date with no ending scheduled.
An untrained , unskilled, inexperienced male or female crew is a liability to the skipper.

I think that’s a little creepy because helping someone move their boat is nothing like a date. Female crew members just need to take the time to weed out male skippers who feel it is. We’re all adults here and should be clear about what we’re looking for, whether that be a casual sex partner or a sailing crew member, but it’s pretty strange to ask for crew when you really are looking for sex. For skippers who think that one of the duties of female crew is to have sex with them, they should just be upfront about it so any woman similarly inclined could respond and those who are interested in sailing could stay away. But to advertise for one crew position when you’re really looking for something quite different seems just plain creepy and is unlikely to get you what you’re looking for. If you want a date, just say so, but it’s pretty pervy and pathetic to advertise for crew so you can get a woman in an isolated situation where you can pressure her into doing something she hasn’t expressed an interest in doing. It’s also a good way to get hit over the head with a winch handle!

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Female crew members just need to take the time to weed out male skippers who feel it is.

Having had various people wanting to crew, male and female, my experience is that women looking for a berth are in my experience a lot less useful a crew to run the boat than men. This isn't because women are less competent sailors, the main reason is that a lot more women apply to an open berth bringing the attitude that looking decorative is all that it takes and she'll be pampered because she deserves it. Men looking for berths usually try to bring something useful and be helpful.

So as a skipper, if you need a good crew, the chance is a lot higher with men than with women. The only real reason to look for women specifically is because they offer something men won't (or you're not interested in), sex.

To all the competent sailor ladies out there, you can thank the other women who benefited with vague promises of companionship to get a free trip for the current culture. You were shafted by them.

In this vein I had an interesting discussion a few years back with one lady complaining about the same. After I explained that I'm perfectly capable of running my boat on my own and don't need help financing the trip, I asked here how her being a crew would improve my situation. It took her a few minutes of confusion before she came up with something vaguely sensible that wasn't just that I should be honoured by her presence.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

It has long been known that women learn better in all-women environments, which is why the elite women's colleges were reluctant to admit men even after the elite men's colleges had admitted women.

Men's colleges were sued. Women's colleges were not.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Having had various people wanting to crew, male and female, my experience is that women looking for a berth are in my experience a lot less useful a crew to run the boat than men. This isn't because women are less competent sailors, the main reason is that a lot more women apply to an open berth bringing the attitude that looking decorative is all that it takes and she'll be pampered because she deserves it. Men looking for berths usually try to bring something useful and be helpful.

So as a skipper, if you need a good crew, the chance is a lot higher with men than with women. The only real reason to look for women specifically is because they offer something men won't (or you're not interested in), sex.

To all the competent sailor ladies out there, you can thank the other women who benefited with vague promises of companionship to get a free trip for the current culture. You were shafted by them.

In this vein I had an interesting discussion a few years back with one lady complaining about the same. After I explained that I'm perfectly capable of running my boat on my own and don't need help financing the trip, I asked here how her being a crew would improve my situation. It took her a few minutes of confusion before she came up with something vaguely sensible that wasn't just that I should be honoured by her presence.

I agree it’s a two way street and male skippers should take the time to weed out potential crew who think their primary purpose onboard is to be a decoration. So for both men and women we all benefit from getting to know each other a bit before committing to a long voyage.

I don’t have experience with female crew other than friends and relatives but I think that there are plenty of women who genuinely want to become useful crew members and are willing to learn what that takes. Just a good, helpful, positive attitude and a non abrasive personality can be a good starting point so they can gradually be turned into good crew members by a skipper who’s willing to be patient and teach them.