10 year standing rigging, why?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by neilpride

We usually don't give a crap if it is 10 years or 20, more or less we base it on the current state, the risk is on the client's back, if an inspection of an old rigging is done, a report is made, for the insurance company or for a general survey based on the current state.

Whether we recommend 10 or 15 years is non-binding advice.

"non-binding" that is a copout

I had my rigging inspected and they found nothing wrong and still wrote in report they recommended it be replaced. Far as the insurance company is concerned you may has write in the report that the boat in condemned and unsafe! I asked the rigger why he wrote that he basically said "we have to"

[GordMay]

Every material, has an finite lifespan, depending upon it's specific application.

According to some industry experts, the lifespan of stainless steel rigging is generally between ±15-20 years for wire, and ±20-30 years for rod.
The average lifespan, for Galvanized Steel is ±10-15 years, and for Synthetic Fiber 5-10 years.

Some manufacturers recommend replacing standing rigging every 10–15 years, while others recommend a replacement interval of 15–20 years.


However, the actual lifespan of your rigging will depend on a variety of factors, including the initial quality of the rigging used, how often you sail, the conditions you sail in, and how well you maintain your rigging.

Pip Hare explains when to check and replace your standing rigging [& why]
➥ https://www.yachtingworld.com/practi...rigging-127894

[neilpride]

I don't know who has inspected your rigging, I have done many reports, some for insurers, others for the client, others for surveys, I have never been pressured by an insurance company, I have met few people who don't know the years of their rigging, difficult to say something to an insurer when there is not even an invoice or a last report, I rely on that if I inspect a mast and found nothing out of order, then the inspection is positive, some riggers can recommend you to change if you don't know the date.

There are riggers hand by hand with insurance companies, of course. But not all of them.

[rslifkin]

I can understand the conservative recommendation to replace past a point even if it looks ok. "We inspected it, but we can only do so much without pulling it all off the boat and sending it for testing that costs more than new rigging. As far as we can tell it's good, but it's still really old so there's no guarantee there isn't a problem we can't see."

Originally Posted by Chotu

Entering into this I think there is also the matter of how hard you push the boat.

you can get away with older rigging if you don’t stress the rig. But if you are stressing the rig you probably ought to have everything in that 10 year window.

Definitely. And how generously the rigging is sized for the boat matters too. A more heavily loaded rig will tolerate less imperfection or damage before failing (and will be more likely to fail from damage that can't be seen).

[neilpride]

Weather and quality I would say, although I agree with Chotu, a boat beating to windward for hundreds of miles puts considerable stress on the rigging.

In the tropics with the humidity and the amount of salt in the environment, the rigging suffers twice compared to a boat in cold climates.

I remember a guy we replaced all the rigging on a Lagoon 380 and one day came back to us complaining that all the end fittings were rusted, we asked him where it had been and said that nearly a month at anchor in a bay where in the other side was breaking the Atlantic Ocean with a separation of a few feet by a flat beach with almost no elevation, so, strong tradewinds, humidity and saltspray all day long whipping the boat around.

Too many variables to last more than 10 years.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Entering into this I think there is also the matter of how hard you push the boat.

you can get away with older rigging if you don’t stress the rig. But if you are stressing the rig you probably ought to have everything in that 10 year window.

I guess you'd have to know what "Stressing the Rig" is defined as.

I'm thinking my rigging is probably 25 years old.

One of the first things I did was test it in 20 knot winds in 2011

I did a 3 hour crossing in winds gusting to around 35 knots in September 2020, and I was definitely worried about my rigging that day because had it failed I was going to take a total beating from the waves.

Waves were breaking over the side and broke my dodger frame before I was able to head DDW

I was holding onto a winch until I was able to get my harness on and close the hatch

I also had a hard accidental gybe 3/4 the way across the lower Chesapeake Bay that day.

The waves were lower by then but wind was still up. It was wind against tide also.

Tiller was loose also which I discovered because I was forced to steer as I had the wrong sail up and the autopilot couldn't handle it.

The forecast was for 22 knots max but was off which I didn't know until I cleared all land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

[Bowdrie]

I went to the site that was linked by GordMay.
https://www.yachtingworld.com/practi...rigging-127894.

And while it provides some good general info, that first big pic that shows the broken strands of wire at the swedge fitting is a perfect example of how NOT to do a swedge fitting.
You'll observe that the fitting in the pic has a longitudinal "seam" on it.
That is a dead giveaway of an improper swedge.
A proper swedge is done on massive rotary machines, (weighing several tons,) which do not leave such a "line/seam" on the fitting.
If you're getting some new rigging ask to see the machines, don't get rigging done by a "linear compression" machine, (or some little "benchtop" device).
Most failures occur at or near the fittings.
Most all rigging has toggles at the lower end, does your rigging have toggles at the upper ends?
It's common to toggle the headstay/jibstay at both ends, but every wire should have them at both ends, it's cheap insurance against unfair loading of where the wire enters the fitting.
Bobstays? if you have a swedge/wire bobstay you must be very particular, both as to its size and length of service.
Such bobstays, the lower ends being constantly immersed in water, (salt is the worst by far,) and being the most heavily loaded wire in the rig, have nowhere near the expected lifespan without failure as for example a backstay, (the most lightly loaded wire,) has.

[SailingHarmonie]

Many people's attitude to rigging replacement reminds me of the old George Carlin line...

I'm planning on living forever. So far... so good!!!

There are some things that people who know stainless steel understand. You can not inspect a stainless steel rig and guarantee its safety. Yes, of course there are failures that you can see, and of course you need to look for them! But there are a lot of faults you can not see. You would never go sailing with a broken wire sicking out of your cap shroud, but how do you know the wire on the other side does not have TWO broken wires on the inside of the cable that you can not see?

A warm environment, salt water, a badly tuned rig, poorly made components (especially swages) all contribute to making invisible failures more likely to happen sooner than later.

It is strictly a numbers game. The older the rig, the more likely it is to fail unexpectedly. There is no "expiration date" on a rig where after that date it is 100% guaranteed to fail. A 10 year old rig is more likely to fail than a 5 year old one, and less so than a 20 year old rig. That's just engineering logic based on well known and understood properties of the kinds of stainless steel used in rigging wires.

You can certainly ignore the advice of industry professionals and come up with your own risk tolerance equation. Just do not bother asking me to go sailing across an ocean on your boat with a 30 year old rig. I put my money where my mouth is, I have turned down lucrative long range deliveries with rigs I considered too old to risk my life on.

[sailingharry]

The problem with the 10-year age is it is an arbitrary number. As has been said up thread, a 10-year-old rig is in worse shape than a 9 year old rig, which is worse than an 8. And 11 is worse than 10. A prudent mariner would replace his rig every year, and even that has risk.

This issue is not unlike the issue of anchor size. If I sail my boat and rarely drag with a 20 lb anchor, it is clearly undersized. If I replace it with a 30 lb anchor, and find that it works, I recommend a 30 lb for my boat. But then the conservative folks would say always go one size larger. So we are at 40. And then someone will suggest that a 50 might even be a good idea.

The problem in both cases is that you only know that you are stepping into meaningful risk is when you have examples of failure. My anchor example started with a 20 lb anchor that occasionally drags, so we know the lower end. But in reality, no one wants to keep it downsizing their anchor until they find the minimum. All of us probably sailing around with 55 lb Rocnas may well have 40 lb more anchor than we need. But nobody's willing to find out.

Same with rigging. If riggers routinely see cracks, rust, or outright failures in standing rigging that is 15 to 20 years old, then that is probably fair justification for a 10-year interval. But if it is simply often repeated and passed along recommendations, it is urban legend. As baseless as people who change their engine oil at 3,000 miles because it is cheap insurance.

The ultimate problem of course is that urban legend is the only thing we have to go on.

[BobFord]

My experience with rigging. My last cat. a Crowther 45 ,1998- , had a mass of rigging but the lee stays became slack to windward. Failures started on a tough beat up the Red Sea.Mileage life about 20,000nm. Evidence was strands fracturing at lower swages. I theorise that the slackness caused excessive bending to the lower connections. Due to rigging mass , easy to effect temporary repair ( with anchor chain and cable grips ?? What else in a remote place !! ) Most rigging lasted until I sold ,approx 50,000nm. Current cat is aluminium and very stiff. Hence ,a modern rig , few stays , but always in tension. At 25,000nm the rig is inspected by me before each passage and by a Rig Surveyor every (2) years. So far so good. I do instill oil into all of the lower connections.

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by neilpride

We usually don't give a crap if it is 10 years or 20, more or less we base it on the current state, the risk is on the client's back, if an inspection of an old rigging is done, a report is made, for the insurance company or for a general survey based on the current state.

Whether we recommend 10 or 15 years is non-binding advice.

++1 on this^^^

What if I buy a boat that has just been re-rigged, did a 5 year refit with the mast down then went sailing? How long before I need to replace?

[Cheechako]

10 years is a broad generalism like many things in boating attempting to reduce a complex question down to one simple statement. Unfortunately insurance companies have (evidently?) adapted it as gospel.
If 10 years is true then certainly the life of an aluminum boat is 10 years or less and they should be scrapped after that time! And certainly masts should be also!

[psk125]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Why is standing rigging life span 10 years. In Scotland it has no finite lifespan, so I am guessing it is heat or sun..

Or do the Scots not want to spend anything to get new rigging? My grandmother was Scottish. When she baked a cake they had to wait a day before serving it because otherwise it got eaten too quickly.

[Tillikum]

Stainless steel in general is known to "work harden" and become subject to fracture as a result. Whether tension alone is enough to cause that or flexing is required a metallurgist should know.

Since the properties of probably nearly all stainless steel alloys are known, a spectrographic analysis of the alloy would be one way to measure the quality of an existing or proposed rig.

Insurance companies are all about minimizing their potential liability and forcing small clients to jump through ever-narrower hoops is an easy way to compensate for the risks taken with larger and less "pliable" clients.

If Samsung appliances are anything to judge by the Koreans are well ahead on the science of "planned failure", sometimes known as "planned obsolescence".

Maintaining proper tension would obviously be critical to minimizing flexing and work-hardening of SS.

Steel cables used to be lubricated from new and sometimes during their lifespan to reduce abrasion of the strands against each other, and of course to prevent rust. Doing the same with SS might be advisable?

Am no rigger, but have some common sense and obviously the point of greatest stress and potential failure is at the attachments where a short portion of a cable is required to take the weight and the loading otherwise spread over the whole length. Any short, sharp point of contact at the point of entry into a ferrule has the potential to cause rapid damage if correct tension is not maintained.

Begs the question whether a galvanized steel cable or a solid rod is not a better option. Rods may or may not be more prone to work-harding from flexing?

All of course depends on build quality and that means getting your materials from countries where quality is still a cultural predisposition, such as Japan.

[Bmorgan562]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Why is standing rigging life span 10 years. In Scotland it has no finite lifespan, so I am guessing it is heat or sun..

Looked at a boat in the PNW. I inquired about the age of the rigging. the owners didn’t know and had her for 15 years. i was a little suspicious. it looked brand new then it later occurred that with all the rain and the temperatures up there are very hospitable to the ss.