10 year standing rigging, why?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

This is why perfectly serviceable aircraft are scrapped after a certain number of cycles of takeoffs, landings and hours in the air. Many high performance aircraft have ‘G’ meters to measure the cycles and these are compared to the results ona static rig where an example of the aircraft’s structure is repeatedly stressed on typical flight regimes.

Aircraft are designed with service factors very close to 1. Your rigging is typically SF greater than 10. If the service factor is sufficiently high the fatigue life calculates to greater than ten million. In engineering design that is considered infinite.

We are not driving planes.

[Flying Monkey]

When in doubt, replace it.
I bought an old boat. I had it professionally surveyed. There were some notes on the rigging questioning the age, but no major faults found. A few months after that, I had a rigger, Rick, come out from Nance and Underwood in Fort Lauderdale. This guy was very skilled and sharp. He found a significant fracture /corrosion in the forestay hardware. The toggles under the furler were bad. Wow!
He also pointed out some minor issues on the mizzen cap shrouds. These cables looked good with a little rust stain around the bottom, just on top of the turnbuckle. I took down one of the mizzen capshrouds so that the rigger could use it as a guide to make s new one.
When I coiled up the cable, the strands of wire rope snapped like old spaghetti. They were brittle as heck.
As that point I did not know the exact age of the standing rigging. The previous owner had the boat 20 years and had recently sailed it solo from Columbia to Ft Lauderdale. No problems.
I decided to replace all the standing rigging.

[col50]

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

Are you saying that work hardening is a myth, or that the manufacturing process results in wire which is on the verge of a spontaneous catastrophic failure?

Please read answer #41 (Nicholson 48)

[El Pinguino]

I can't help with anecdotes - only personal experience.
Lost the original 8 year old rig - and mast - due to failure of a t-ball fitting on the lowers.
Replaced my chainplates in Argentina in 2010 - one failed going to windward in heavy weather in 2014 - I suspect poor quality metal.
All rigging replaced in 2002. Another total 'rolling' replacement over two years in 2013/15 including all 30 year old turnbuckles..
Lowers replaced in 2013 - broken strands found where wires entered swage in 2016 - they had only done Chile to NZ and back - maybe 14,000 miles.

Some thoughts
Tballs and Swages are the curse of the sailing classes. Better by far are tangs and Staloks.
I have changed to tangs on the lowers - imo the hardest worked part of the rig - and got rid of all swages below the lower spreaders.
The first 4 years of my boat's life were spent in a UK sailing school - not poncing around on the Solent but crossing Biscay on a regular basis in all weathers so that rig had been worked hard.

Some anecdotes
When I lost my first rig George Taylor - editor of PBO at the time - said that some well regarded fitting - I forget the brand - would last forever in the UK and Northern Europe but fail in short order on boats in the Caribbean .
Two sister ships of mine experienced similar rig failures to mine after quite long ocean passages , one was lost off Tristan da Cunha as a result.
My cousin ran a sailing school in the south of England... quite a young Moody maybe 40 foot. Going to windward in a short steep sea in the Channel Islands. Helmsman stuck the nose into one - boat stopped - rig kept going. As he said the difference was I was 800 miles offshore - he was 800 metres off a lee shore.

Both he and the nice man from Pantanieus (sp) that paid for my new rig said that the rule of thumb was 12 years or a circumnavigation.

Final thought - having your mast fall down can ruin your whole day.

[vk4hr]

No, it is a number created by insurance Companies to mitigate their risk profile. It used to be for racing boats, then they thought, hey let's do it for recreational boats too. I imagine this 10 years will shorten in the nearby future.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The Insurance company sez so..

True except
Not true in all countries, OP is in Scotland and in the UK it’s generally the owners responsibility to ensure the boat is in condition to sail, (Insurance don’t ask for surveys) obviously then if rigging failure occurs you can’t really claim for loosing the mast.

[chrisr]

something to keep in mind is even if your insurance company is one of the few that does not specifically say rigging must be less than 10 yo, there is still an overriding onus on the owner to maintain the vessel.

if you lose the stick, the first question will be "what have you done to maintain the rig".
if you can't produce evidence of appropriate checks / replacement, the claim will almost certainly fail.

cheers,

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by col50

Please read answer #41 (Nicholson 48)

‘Work hardening’ requires ‘working the metal’. That means stressing it beyond yield such as pulling it through a die where the cross section is reduced or in a rolling mill where cross section is reduced. There is no work hardening without’work’

[col50]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

‘Work hardening’ requires ‘working the metal’. That means stressing it beyond yield such as pulling it through a die where the cross section is reduced or in a rolling mill where cross section is reduced. There is no work hardening without’work’

And that's the way it is.

[merrydolphin]

Don’t forget, the more frequently the rig is changed, the more that the riggers make! A simple but obvious factor.

[rpackard]

The Seldon mast company recommends 20,000 sea miles as a good replacement point. It makes more sense to suggest time under sail rather than just time. Of course insurance companies look for excuses to deny a claim.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

...
Begs the question whether a galvanized steel cable or a solid rod is not a better option. Rods may or may not be more prone to work-harding from flexing...

Originally Posted by GordMay

...
According to some industry experts, the lifespan of stainless steel rigging is generally between ±15-20 years for wire, and ±20-30 years for rod.
The average lifespan, for Galvanized Steel is ±10-15 years, and for Synthetic Fiber 5-10 years.

Fibre, Galvanized, SS Wire, & Rod - in ascending order of longevity.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Talbot

That is why most insurance companies only allow 5 years for boats that are raced. - Its all to do with the load

Which insurance companies? What kind of racing?


In about 30 years of racing (not all one boat) on OPB's, I've never been aware of the owner replacing rigging. If it was normally done every 5 years, I'm SURE I'd have been with that boat when it was done -- more than once! Even if every 10 years, I'm really surprised I was never aware of it being done (but it could easily have been done the year before I joined that boat, and the year after I moved on).

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

Stainless steel in general is known to "work harden" and become subject to fracture as a result. Whether tension alone is enough to cause that or flexing is required a metallurgist should know.

I'm a degreed Mechanical Engineer. We study this stuff. Which means, 40 years ago, I could actually speak intelligently about it. Now you are stuck with the storytelling of a forgetful old man.... But, "Once upon a time, as I recall...."


When metal flexes, the bonds between the atoms stretch, and then return to their original configuration. This doesn't change the hardness of the metal.


When metal bends, the atoms actually move. Imagine bending a ream of paper, and the sheets move along each other. In a 100% pure metal, this doesn't harden it. But in an alloy, there are alien atoms. These atoms help to stop the movement of the rest of the atoms, making it harder (often why they are added, such as in steel or bronze). When you bend it, these atoms slide along and collide with (and collect with) others. This permanently modifies the molecular structure of the metal, and it "work hardens."


But then there is fatique. This is where a spring is flexed repeatedly (but without being deformed -- molecules moving), and it will eventually fail. And the cause of that is lost to too many glasses of wine.....

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

True except
Not true in all countries, OP is in Scotland and in the UK it’s generally the owners responsibility to ensure the boat is in condition to sail, (Insurance don’t ask for surveys) obviously then if rigging failure occurs you can’t really claim for loosing the mast.

This sort of defeats the purpose of insurance. Perfect mariners sailing perfect vessels never have losses. Nearly all losses can be attributed to some lapse of judgement. The idea that "it failed, so it wasn't suitable, so no coverage" and the closely aligned "you ran into it, so you weren't paying attention" or the "you shouldn't have gone out in those conditions" when taken to an extreme makes insurance worthless.